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  1. #361
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    It is just ridiculously stupid to think about honey in such simplified way that syrup is equal to honey.
    Who thinks about honey as being an equal to syrup?

    What I am finding interesting is you are dancing around and not answering a simple direct question about changing the properties of honey by removing pollen. Pollen being a part of the non soluable portion of honey. Does removing pollen change honey from being honey?

  2. #362
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    What is added to the honey during crushing and straining? Wax, I guess.
    More than wax. Do you suppose your bees thoroughly scrub their little feet before waking from frame to frame inside the colony. Who knows what those little girls been walking thru while outside the hive. I certainly hope they have not visited Mark's old dairy job and walked thru bare foot what he walked thru barefoot.

    bahahahaha

  3. #363
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Hmm, Carrot blossoms offer nectar to pollinators, according to Dr. Keith S. Delaplane. Here's a page from his book supporting that:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=ZHG...nation&f=false

    Seems to be somewhat of a stretch to say that carrot honey cannot be made from carrot blossoms.

    And if you don't know who Dr. Delaplane, of University of Georgia is, here's his background.
    http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/personnel/delaplane.html

    And here's someone from last spring looking for 400 hives to pollinate carrots:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ed-pollination
    Thanks Graham, I didn't know that carrots produce nectar. Learned something today. Yes, of course, I recognize Dr. Delaplane's name and contributions to the world of beekeeping. Met him once or twice if I recall correctly.

    The statement under the photo of the carrot honey might lead someone to believe that pollen is what bees make honey out of, don't ya think?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  4. #364
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by apis maximus View Post
    Why do you think carrot flowers cannot be a nectar source?
    I did not say they couldn't. Did you read the line below the photo of the carrot honey?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  5. #365
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    What is added to the honey during crushing and straining?
    ...for the third time, air bubbles are acting as "seeds".

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  6. #366
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I know my question got lost in the shuffle, but I am very interested if someone could answer this question for me,
    maybe I missed it along the way,

    I have often wondered how the pollen get into the honey naturally,

    Does the bee ingest the pollen while taking up the nectar or is the pollen accidentally dusted into the honey cells while the bees walk over head,.?
    I know the beekeeper has alot to do with the addition of pollen as they extract the honey from the frames.
    So, in the context of natural, what % of pollen in the honey would need to be present to qualify as HONEY, as some are suggesting here?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #367
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    No, "you can not change some of its character by heating and/or filtering without making it something other than water or honey" - even water after heating will taste differently - did you ever try fresh water from the glassier? And then heat it and compare? Entirely different taste.
    I actually have a funny story about that. The summer before I was going to college, I was looking for a job. I saw an ad in the paper about a sales opportunity...called the number, and showed up for the presentation....in the basement of a very large house. I was the only person there who's first language was english (only mentioning this to point out that I was not the target market...they were looking for recent immigrants).
    Four words....water filters, multilevel marketing.

    The goal was to get everyone there to sell everyone they knew a water filter, and in the process, become "distributors" with a garage full of product that they paid for....only to realize that they have been used as a way to sell the product into their own ethnic community....and that the public at large generally does not buy water filters this way. The water filters were of reasonable quality...it was not a total scam, but the marketing was obviously not going to benefit the people in the room with me.

    When it came time to "test" the filter and see how compelling the sales pitch would be, we were given a cup of warm tap water, and a cup of cold filtered water...guess which one "tasted" better?

    Did the water that came out of the filter taste better than the water that went into the filter? ...it's a rather moot point, they are both water. Warm tap water and cold tap water taste different, but they are both water.

    Another related story....

    For many years, researchers defined chalkbrood as "Ascosphaera apis" in the literature. When one wanted to do a study on chalkbrood, dried mummies were simply ground up, and the resulting powder was used as an Ascosphaera apis inoculation.

    Dr. Phil Starks, from Tufts University, when he started looking at the chalkbrood literature, and at chalkbrood mummies, he was appalled to find that the actual mummies were infected with a number of different fungi...not just Ascosphaera apis.....yet, virtually all the research on chalkbrood had been done with whole ground mummies as the source, but talked about using Ascosphaera apis as an innoculant. "chalkbrood" is a complex culture when seen in the field, yet the causative agent is more specific. Ascosphaera apis is not "pure chalkbrood", and the complex culture in the mummies is not simply "Ascosphaera apis".

    I dare say that if one wanted to define "honey" for serious chemistry work, one would have to standardize it down to the lowest common denominator....some balance of fructose, glucose, sucrose dissolved in about 17% water. Using "raw honey" as a reagent is meaningless, because raw honey is so variable....the experiment would be unreproducible using a variety of sources of "raw honey". This is why you cannot make any equivalency between the food honey and the chemical water.

    [added in edit]....In fact, imagine a lab procedure that called for "tap water" or "bottled water"....meaningless, unless the purpose of the test is to determine what the qualities of that water is.


    Both views are legitimate but incompatible when mixed together and semantic is used as a "scientific" argument... that all waters are the same...
    I never said that all water was the same. I said that it is all water.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  8. #368
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Wow. Nineteen pages of posts, and I don't know that much of anything has been established. I started reading the thread because the title implied that something other than a product made by bees was being fraudulently passed off as honey. As deknow stated a bit earlier in the thread, I presumed that HFCS was being labeled "honey" and sold as such. That doesn't seem to be the case.

    In the meantime, the thread seems to have gone to some quite accusatory tones (naming companies and insinuating that the products they produce are not as they are labeled). While it has been pointed out that the USDA uses a definition of honey that covers a range of things, no one else has been able to offer a clear, personal definition of "honey," other than some claiming it is distinct from "processed honey." I know it's difficult to define such a thing. A bit earlier in this thread, I posted:

    Honey that comes off from a legume flow -- such as predominantly clover -- is decidedly different than mixed wildflower honey is different than buckwheat honey is different than honeydew honey (which, by the way, should almost certainly have no pollen naturally in it). All are "honey." All are chemically different. Therefore, "honey" must cover quite a range. The moisture content varies, the floral sources vary, the amounts of pollen if any vary, the pH varies, and none of it might be consistent even within a hive from one day to the next. -Kieck
    Regarding crystallization and when it occurs, as others have pointed out, honey from some floral sources does not seem to crystallize over extended periods of time. Honey from others does. I've had bees make honey from honeydew. It crystallizes so quickly in the comb that it makes me wonder if it doesn't crystallize in the bees' honey crops on their way back to the hives. Quite a range of things in "honey."

    And for the record, last time (a couple years ago) Boris asked me to "prove" I actually have bees, I told him to contact the state apiarist's office and confirm it with them. I PMed Boris the name of the state apiarist here and the registration records for the state, and I invited him to come visit and see for himself. If anyone else feels they need such verification, please PM me and I will send you the same information. I fail to see how such things are germane to this discussion, and I don't care to post such information publicly, but I'll do my best to confirm that I have bees for anyone who cares so deeply about it.

  9. #369
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post

    Warm tap water and cold tap water taste different, but they are both water.
    Warm tap water will always taste different because of the annode rod that is in our hot water heaters. a true experiment on water quality taste from hot to cold is to take a portion the same sample (cup of cold water) preferably in glass and heat it in another non reactive vessel. Then sample both warm and cold water. comparing warm tap water and cold tap water is like comparing our apples and oranges, or maybe Mccintosh and Granny Smiths.

  10. #370
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    So, in the context of natural, what % of pollen in the honey would need to be present to qualify as HONEY, as some are suggesting here? -Ian
    I'm interested, too, Ian. I've searched for such things in the past and again during this discussion. The few labs that do such tests all seem to hold that information quite close to the vest. Maybe it's so that people can't simply add pollen to syrup to pass it off as "honey?" The best I can say is that it seems to be a range of values, but what that range is, I do not know.

    I suspect that some pollen ends up in nectaries within flowers just by the sloppy nature of insect pollination. Plants rely on such "sloppiness" to pass pollen from one flower to the next. If bees carefully packed pollen and took it all away, the pollen would fail to serve its purpose for the plants. It's that general brushing and dusting of pollen all over the bee and to different parts of the flower that accomplish transfers of pollen -- i. e. pollination.

    Of course, if a beekeeper extracts a frame of mostly honey with some cells of pollen mixed in, that pollen will add to the pollen levels in the honey.

    As I pointed out earlier, in an instance of bees storing relatively pure honeydew "honey" (I don't know, does it still qualify as "honey" if it doesn't come from floral sources? It's natural, bees do it on occasion, but it's different than the usual "honey" that most folks think of), I would expect no pollen from the source of the carbohydrates. Any pollen in those cases must be contaminants, I would think.

  11. #371
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    If you look at a dandelion flower, just by looking at the flower you can see that the nectar would be loaded with pollen.
    \But look at a soy bean flower, I bet little to no natural pollen is present in that honey
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #372
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I have often wondered how the pollen get into the honey naturally,
    Here is an explanation of how pollen gets into honey:
    Pollen can be incorporated into the honey produced in a beehive in a number of ways. When a honeybee lands on a flower in search of nectar, some of the flower's pollen is dislodged and falls into the nectar that is sucked up by the bee and stored in her stomach. At the same time, other pollen grains often attach themselves to the hairs, legs, antenna, and even the eyes of visiting bees. Later, some of the pollen that was sucked into her stomach with the nectar will be regurgitated with the collected nectar and deposited into open comb cells of the hive. While still in the hive the same honeybee might groom her body in an effort to remove entangled pollen on her hairs. During that process pollen can fall into open comb cells or the pollen can fall onto areas of the hive where other bees may track it into regions of the hive where unripe honey is still exposed in open comb cells.

    http://www.scirpus.ca/cap/articles/paper017.htm
    And, OMG , bees themselves filter pollen out of honey!

    The honeybee's filtering process, as described by Snodgrass and Erickson (1992) is rapid and effective. The bee sucks nectar into a slender tube that ends in the bee's abdomen where it becomes an enlarged thin-walled sac called the honey stomach. This thin-walled sac is greatly distensible and can expand to hold large amounts of nectar. Once in the honey stomach, the nectar flows over the proventriculus which serves as a regulatory apparatus that filters and controls the entrance of food into the bee's stomach. The anterior end of the proventriculus, also called the honey stopper, projects into the bee's honey stomach like the neck of a bottle and at its anterior end is an x-shaped opening consisting of four, thick, triangular-shaped, muscle-controlled lips. The nectar in the honey stomach is drawn back and forth into the funnel-shaped proventriculus where it is filtered to remove debris such as pollen grains and the fungal spores of foul brood.

    http://www.scirpus.ca/cap/articles/paper017.htm
    ultracrepidarian >> noting or pertaining to a person who criticizes, judges, or gives advice outside of his expertise

  13. #373
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Some years, clouds of pollen are blowing from spruce trees here while dandelions are blooming. I imagine some of that spruce pollen must wind up in honey, too.

    I agree: different shapes of flowers and different sizes of pollens must mean that some are more prone to getting into honey.

  14. #374
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Dandelion pollen is especially interesting, as they mostly reproduce asexually. Pollen and nectar must be produced at a tremendous cost by the plant...the occasional fertilization must either be worth it, or there are other benefits for a plant to be visited by insects that make this profitable for the flower.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  15. #375
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I did not say they couldn't. Did you read the line below the photo of the carrot honey?
    Sure did.

    We're probably getting off topic already, but the statement under the picture "...bees gather the pollen from the carrot flowers and make this unique honey" did not lead me "to believe that pollen is what bees make honey out of".

    Two separate activities/processes taking place. One, gathering pollen and the other, making honey. Lots of flowers are sources of both, nectar and pollen. That does not mean bees visiting those flowers are making honey from the pollen of those flowers.
    As yourself so eloquently pointed out in previous postings, honey is made by the bees from nectar, and the pollen is there for the ride. Or not?

  16. #376
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I raised a pretty large quantity of honeydew this past summer. A pollen analysis showed only a small amount of sweet clover pollen ( remants of an earlier flow) and a local weed in the daisy family. The "honey" is very dark (70+ mm) and has yet to granulate. its obviously not clover honey and qualifies as honeydew only because the scenario fits and it dosent qualify as anything else. Given the logic of some on here it's honey since it does contain some pollen. Soooo honey??? Yes? No? If not what and why?

  17. #377
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Dandelion pollen is especially interesting,
    My favorite flower, the Dandelion !
    my kids get funny looks when they tell people that. My kids dont understand why people hate dandelions,.? So young and innocent, they have not been corrupted by the silliness of society

    I agree, all the pollen and nectar available is a tremendous cost to the plant, at what cost?
    Got to look at the time that plant grows, early to mid spring. Lots of moisture, lots of nutrients, lots of sunshine. The plant exploits the abundance it grows in
    and the bees exploit the plants abundance , got to love nature
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #378
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Soooo honey??? Yes? No? If not what and why?
    Hmmmm,. . . . lets talk 19 forum pages on that one,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #379
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    What is the industry going to do about Ultra Filtered honey? In my eye this is the real issue. This honey is being watered down, heated and then sent through very fine filters to remove contaminates in the honey and then brought back to its original state.

    Is there a way of identifying this stuff?

    or perhaps is the only way for the consumer to avoid ultra filtered honey is to buy from packers who qualify their honey with documentation ,.?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #380
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    You have failed to provide ANY statutes and ANY lab results that show that ANY honey found by you was not honey...Crazy Roland
    Roland - read my post #320 again carefully!
    I said:
    "My first argument is the undeniable basic (!!!): in general real HONEY (almost all types) HAVE to crystallize sooner or latter. Crystallization of honey is a natural process, which indicates its good quality. And as you know, several factors determine the time it will take honey to crystallize...
    From the other hand – “honey” from the Supermarkets (processed honey) LOSES ITS CRYSTAL STRUCTURE and therefore (mainly) remains liquid for many years without Crystallization!"
    This is the main difference between HONEY and liquid PROCESSED HONEY."

    In addition: "...All honey crystallizes eventually (!); suspended particles (including pollen) and fine air bubbles in honey contribute to faster crystallization.
    Filtering pollen and other particles out helps delay crystallization, allowing the honey to remain liquid for a much longer period than honey that has not been filtered." http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/0.../#.UR0Ewx3Whn4

    I have no time to teach you beekeeping basics - go to your local library...

    I also said: "So, if you (Ian) wish – please find some details about your honey Processing procedure (temperature, time and filtration) and I will give you more explanation."

    The second part of my explanation is a simple home test, that shows influences of different type of honey (HONEY and PROCESSED HONEY) on bacteria in MILK.
    And result is posted here: https://sites.google.com/site/health...honey_test.JPG
    But I need detailed information from Ian to be sure that liquid processed honey from my Shop Rite passed a packaging process similar to this: http://www.suebee.com/?q=node/32
    or to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDtClXCM1_I

    Nevertheless, I still did not get requested details.
    But it's up to Ian to provide or not to provide requested details, and I do not want to force him.
    Last edited by Boris; 02-14-2013 at 08:44 AM.

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