Tests Show Most Store Honey Isn’t Honey

[Rader Sidetrack]

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[ryan]

Boris
Packagers buy honey, heat it, filter it, then sell it. The USDA says yes you can do that to honey. The USDA also says that if some or all the pollen gets removed it's fine.

It's honey. Get over it. Your opinion doesn't give you the right to accuse us of perpetrating a fraud. We are following the laws, rules, and traditions.

That news peice was a fraud. It's a fraud to call my honey on the store shelf "NOT REAL"

[cerezha]

... honey crystallized prematurely because of the processing (extracting or crush and strain) and the resulting introduction of air bubbles....

I am not sure about air bubbles provoking crystallization. It sounded OK, but I doubt. Why? A few reasons:
- when I crush-strain my honey I do not introduce any bubbles, my strained honey have no visible bubbles. Nevertheless, it crystallizes sometime rather quickly. Additional argument against bubbles is that I always "treat" my honey in exactly the same way (scientific education, I guess), nevertheless, different crops of honey crystallized with different speed. Last crop starts crystallizing in the bucket, while comb honey is still liquid... mystery of my honey. May be I have special bees?

- if bubbles responsible for crystallization - there is very easy way to remove them from the honey - vacuum it. Hey - packers, where you are? Fresh free idea - you may steal it from me. I would imagine that vacuuming could affect smell, but it would not affect physical state. Note that heating would work in similar way by removing air bubbles, but slower than vacuum.

- most "scientific" explanation of crystallization is that particulate matter including pollen works as an initiator(s) to start crystallization. The further crystallization as rightly mentioned above by many people, would depend from actual composition of the whole honey, storage conditions etc. In this case, unfortunately, the solution is to remove or minimize "initiators" from the honey with all consequences partially covered in this thread. Note, that I DO NOT recommend to modify honey in any way.

[cerezha]

Boris
Packagers buy honey, heat it, filter it, then sell it. The USDA says yes you can do that to honey. The USDA also says that if some or all the pollen gets removed it's fine. ....

Did you try to sell this honey in California?

[cerezha]

Boris,
producer packer producer packer producer packer producer packer

I am curios, where is consumer in this chain? I afraid you omit most important part of the chain...

[Ian]

who said that was any type of chain,.?
Boris was confusing the two, in more than one occasion

But you draw out a very important point, its the consumer who we should be striving to satisfy. And its the consumer who ultimately decides what is and what is not suitable to buy. We work in a consumer driven market, we can not forget that very important part of the production chain

[ryan]

I don't think CA is getting any different honey than any other state.

CA most certainly has honey on the store shelf that has been heated and filtered. Perhaps I don't understand your question.

[Roland]

This is really not that difficult. No one here has the power to define honey, only governments, thought hte commerce clause. Defining honey is a legal provess. The US has no legal definition of honey. The pdf file has DESCRIPTIONS. A legal definition has associated tests to verify if the item meets the legal definition. The Codex Alimentarus(sp?),, I believe, has definitions AND supporting tests. California and Florida I believe have a definition that pollen must not be removed, as well as sugar ratios and percentage moisture, derived from the Codex. Wisconsin is even more strict .

I believe the Cali case is Brod vs.Sue bee.

So Boris, what honey have you tested to show that ANY packer or producer has sold a product as honey that fails to meet the laws in you area??????? It does not matter what you believe, the law is the law.

Crazy Roland

[cerezha]

who said that was any type of chain,.?
Boris was confusing the two, in more than one occasion

But you draw out a very important point, its the consumer who we should be striving to satisfy. And its the consumer who ultimately decides what is and what is not suitable to buy. We work in a consumer driven market, we can not forget that very important part of the production chain

yet, you forgot to mention such important element as a consumer...

[cerezha]

I don't think CA is getting any different honey than any other state.

CA most certainly has honey on the store shelf that has been heated and filtered. Perhaps I don't understand your question.

see post #428 - it looks like your ruling regarding honey may not work in California - than what are you talking about? What is the reason to post something without proper knowledge of the real situation? Roland posted at least twice in THIS thread that FL and CA require pollen in the honey. Apparently, YOUR honey is not real in CA! Sergey

[Ian]

Sergey, when did I forget to mention the consumer ?

[ryan]

Yes yes. I currently am paying cash from my pocket to fund that lawsuit.
Guilty as charged, I'm a Sue member.

I think it is silly to assume that decades of heating and filtering of honey ended the day someone filed a lawsuit. (? my proof is post #1? ) Perhaps some have changed the filter size. Either way the product on the shelf is most likely the same look feel and smell that it always was.

Its a Good point. But I'm guessing not much has actually changed on the shelf. Please do tell if you know of any recent tests of honey. I'll cite post #1 as part of the reason I guess the way I do. But that article is so old I doubt many people will think it's relevant. :-)

[cerezha]

Sergey, when did I forget to mention the consumer ?

Ian
I simply did not see any mentioning of customers by you in this thread if not count last two when you respond on my comment. If you feel, I am not right, than could you kindly provide the post numbers where you mention the word "customer" in this thread? It would be very useful for sake of clarity!

[BMAC]

You need to read posts more carefully,because I explained earlier my "theory" that wax may slow down the crystallization process inside the comb. This "theory" was proven to be not true because many people reported that honey, in fact, do crystallize in the comb. I accepted that. Sergey

I appreciate your opinion. However thats all it is, as I read posts here quite well. As for what I want from you: Nothing actually. You act as though folks here are stupid and should listen carefully to what you have to say about anything as you are obviously an authority in all matters because you hold a master's degree in human physiology along with a degree in _________. I left the blank becuase most of us could careless what degrees you hold from educational institutions.

However I brought up removing the pollen from honey and the relationship of changing the properties of honey in a scientific fashion being you are hung on theories and chemical names and pure substances. It appears that scientifically speaking honey with pollen removed is still honey as pollen is a non soluble so theoretically it can be removed from honey without actually altering the honey. It should not matter how pollen is typically removed from honey in the industry as that is simply a common practice.

This of course is simply a theory from your ignorant fellow beekeeper.

[BMAC]

people keep saying trolling

what is trolling?

Its when I intentionally set my fishing line a specific depths in a body of water and slowly move the boat forward in an attempt to catch a fish.

[Kieck]

At the risk of sending this thread onward for another 10 pages...

California and Florida I believe have a definition that pollen must not be removed, as well as sugar ratios and percentage moisture, derived from the Codex. Wisconsin is even more strict. -Roland

Do these states test honey for presence of pollen, do you know? I'm curious to know if they make provision for those instances like have been mentioned here when bees produce honeydew honey (which should be expected to have no pollen in it, if it's pure).

[Ian]

Its when I intentionally set my fishing line a specific depths in a body of water and slowly move the boat forward in an attempt to catch a fish.

That makes a lot of sense !

[ryan]

Brod vs sue bee. Case dismissed sept 2012.
Ross vs sue bee. Case dismissed January 14, 2013.

California courts rule my honey is OK as labeled, HONEY.

Look them up, they are good reading.

[beeman2009]

I thought this forum was about beekeeping Not about politics, grammer lessons, consumer affairs and the like. While you guys sit around aruging about whose OPIONION is right, your bees are dying! Does that mean anything? It's a sad state of affairs when good beekeepers let money, greed & power become their master. Was hoping to learn something useful today, guess it won't be here.

[lazy shooter]

This thread is what the females refer to as a "who's the biggest contest."