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  1. #421
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,104

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Checking the Beesource Member list
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/memb...sername&order=
    shows that there are 19 members with a location of "Russia". However, none of them have made more than 10 posts each.


    You can do member searches on Location by clicking Forum >Community>Member List> Advanced Search
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  2. #422
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
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    136

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Boris
    Packagers buy honey, heat it, filter it, then sell it. The USDA says yes you can do that to honey. The USDA also says that if some or all the pollen gets removed it's fine.

    It's honey. Get over it. Your opinion doesn't give you the right to accuse us of perpetrating a fraud. We are following the laws, rules, and traditions.

    That news peice was a fraud. It's a fraud to call my honey on the store shelf "NOT REAL"

  3. #423
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,496

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ... honey crystallized prematurely because of the processing (extracting or crush and strain) and the resulting introduction of air bubbles....
    I am not sure about air bubbles provoking crystallization. It sounded OK, but I doubt. Why? A few reasons:
    - when I crush-strain my honey I do not introduce any bubbles, my strained honey have no visible bubbles. Nevertheless, it crystallizes sometime rather quickly. Additional argument against bubbles is that I always "treat" my honey in exactly the same way (scientific education, I guess), nevertheless, different crops of honey crystallized with different speed. Last crop starts crystallizing in the bucket, while comb honey is still liquid... mystery of my honey. May be I have special bees?

    - if bubbles responsible for crystallization - there is very easy way to remove them from the honey - vacuum it. Hey - packers, where you are? Fresh free idea - you may steal it from me. I would imagine that vacuuming could affect smell, but it would not affect physical state. Note that heating would work in similar way by removing air bubbles, but slower than vacuum.

    - most "scientific" explanation of crystallization is that particulate matter including pollen works as an initiator(s) to start crystallization. The further crystallization as rightly mentioned above by many people, would depend from actual composition of the whole honey, storage conditions etc. In this case, unfortunately, the solution is to remove or minimize "initiators" from the honey with all consequences partially covered in this thread. Note, that I DO NOT recommend to modify honey in any way.
    Last edited by cerezha; 02-14-2013 at 09:05 PM.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  4. #424
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Boris
    Packagers buy honey, heat it, filter it, then sell it. The USDA says yes you can do that to honey. The USDA also says that if some or all the pollen gets removed it's fine. ....
    Did you try to sell this honey in California?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  5. #425
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,496

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Boris,
    producer packer producer packer producer packer producer packer
    I am curios, where is consumer in this chain? I afraid you omit most important part of the chain...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  6. #426
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,911

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    who said that was any type of chain,.?
    Boris was confusing the two, in more than one occasion

    But you draw out a very important point, its the consumer who we should be striving to satisfy. And its the consumer who ultimately decides what is and what is not suitable to buy. We work in a consumer driven market, we can not forget that very important part of the production chain
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #427
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I don't think CA is getting any different honey than any other state.

    CA most certainly has honey on the store shelf that has been heated and filtered. Perhaps I don't understand your question.

  8. #428
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,694

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    This is really not that difficult. No one here has the power to define honey, only governments, thought hte commerce clause. Defining honey is a legal provess. The US has no legal definition of honey. The pdf file has DESCRIPTIONS. A legal definition has associated tests to verify if the item meets the legal definition. The Codex Alimentarus(sp?),, I believe, has definitions AND supporting tests. California and Florida I believe have a definition that pollen must not be removed, as well as sugar ratios and percentage moisture, derived from the Codex. Wisconsin is even more strict .

    I believe the Cali case is Brod vs.Sue bee.

    So Boris, what honey have you tested to show that ANY packer or producer has sold a product as honey that fails to meet the laws in you area??????? It does not matter what you believe, the law is the law.

    Crazy Roland

  9. #429
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    1,496

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    who said that was any type of chain,.?
    Boris was confusing the two, in more than one occasion

    But you draw out a very important point, its the consumer who we should be striving to satisfy. And its the consumer who ultimately decides what is and what is not suitable to buy. We work in a consumer driven market, we can not forget that very important part of the production chain
    yet, you forgot to mention such important element as a consumer...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  10. #430
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    I don't think CA is getting any different honey than any other state.

    CA most certainly has honey on the store shelf that has been heated and filtered. Perhaps I don't understand your question.
    see post #428 - it looks like your ruling regarding honey may not work in California - than what are you talking about? What is the reason to post something without proper knowledge of the real situation? Roland posted at least twice in THIS thread that FL and CA require pollen in the honey. Apparently, YOUR honey is not real in CA! Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  11. #431
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Sergey, when did I forget to mention the consumer ?
    Last edited by Ian; 02-14-2013 at 09:25 PM.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #432
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
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    136

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Yes yes. I currently am paying cash from my pocket to fund that lawsuit.
    Guilty as charged, I'm a Sue member.

    I think it is silly to assume that decades of heating and filtering of honey ended the day someone filed a lawsuit. (? my proof is post #1? ) Perhaps some have changed the filter size. Either way the product on the shelf is most likely the same look feel and smell that it always was.

    Its a Good point. But I'm guessing not much has actually changed on the shelf. Please do tell if you know of any recent tests of honey. I'll cite post #1 as part of the reason I guess the way I do. But that article is so old I doubt many people will think it's relevant. :-)

  13. #433
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    Oct 2011
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    Santa Monica, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Sergey, when did I forget to mention the consumer ?
    Ian
    I simply did not see any mentioning of customers by you in this thread if not count last two when you respond on my comment. If you feel, I am not right, than could you kindly provide the post numbers where you mention the word "customer" in this thread? It would be very useful for sake of clarity!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  14. #434
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Montgomery County, NY
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    1,717

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    You need to read posts more carefully,because I explained earlier my "theory" that wax may slow down the crystallization process inside the comb. This "theory" was proven to be not true because many people reported that honey, in fact, do crystallize in the comb. I accepted that. Sergey
    I appreciate your opinion. However thats all it is, as I read posts here quite well. As for what I want from you: Nothing actually. You act as though folks here are stupid and should listen carefully to what you have to say about anything as you are obviously an authority in all matters because you hold a master's degree in human physiology along with a degree in _________. I left the blank becuase most of us could careless what degrees you hold from educational institutions.

    However I brought up removing the pollen from honey and the relationship of changing the properties of honey in a scientific fashion being you are hung on theories and chemical names and pure substances. It appears that scientifically speaking honey with pollen removed is still honey as pollen is a non soluble so theoretically it can be removed from honey without actually altering the honey. It should not matter how pollen is typically removed from honey in the industry as that is simply a common practice.

    This of course is simply a theory from your ignorant fellow beekeeper.

  15. #435
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    Jun 2009
    Location
    Montgomery County, NY
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    1,717

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    people keep saying trolling

    what is trolling?
    Its when I intentionally set my fishing line a specific depths in a body of water and slowly move the boat forward in an attempt to catch a fish.

  16. #436
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Volga, SD
    Posts
    2,790

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    At the risk of sending this thread onward for another 10 pages...

    California and Florida I believe have a definition that pollen must not be removed, as well as sugar ratios and percentage moisture, derived from the Codex. Wisconsin is even more strict. -Roland
    Do these states test honey for presence of pollen, do you know? I'm curious to know if they make provision for those instances like have been mentioned here when bees produce honeydew honey (which should be expected to have no pollen in it, if it's pure).

  17. #437
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    5,911

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by BMAC View Post
    Its when I intentionally set my fishing line a specific depths in a body of water and slowly move the boat forward in an attempt to catch a fish.
    That makes a lot of sense !
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #438
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Jasper, Texas, USA
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    136

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Brod vs sue bee. Case dismissed sept 2012.
    Ross vs sue bee. Case dismissed January 14, 2013.

    California courts rule my honey is OK as labeled, HONEY.

    Look them up, they are good reading.

  19. #439
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Portland, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    241

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I thought this forum was about beekeeping Not about politics, grammer lessons, consumer affairs and the like. While you guys sit around aruging about whose OPIONION is right, your bees are dying! Does that mean anything? It's a sad state of affairs when good beekeepers let money, greed & power become their master. Was hoping to learn something useful today, guess it won't be here.
    Beeman
    All things may be lawful; but not all things are advantagous.

  20. #440
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    brownwood, TX, USA
    Posts
    827

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    This thread is what the females refer to as a "who's the biggest contest."

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