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  1. #381
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Ian: In addition to testimg for adulterants I think about the only logical answer (and it dosent solve the entire problem) is that all raw, bulk honey sales should contain pollen. There is no logical reason why someone would filter it out of raw honey. Of course that is where all the confusion that reigns on here originally came from. It was a fatally flawed report from a reporter that didn't fully research his subject matter. Sigh! According to Ryan corrections were later made but so much mis-information has persisted that we still end up threads such as this about an article written a year and a half ago.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  2. #382
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    We don't even have a good working definition of honey....how can we define raw honey? I get asked all the time "what makes this honey raw", my answer always starts with, "there is no legal definition for the term, and different people use it different ways..."

    Deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  3. #383
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I am not asking for a legal definition Dean. Call it unfiltered, extracted honey if using the term raw bothers you. It is the state at which virtually 100% of honey is in that is sold to the businesses that repackage and market honey. To filter it is expensive, time consuming and degrades the color. There is no logical reason, that I know of, for any of it to be filtered in any way at that stage unless someone is trying to hide its origin which is exactly the reason this whole issue ever reared it's ugly head.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #384
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    One beesource contributor has shared the experience of wholesaling barrels of honey to a food manufacturer (this was largely "raw" honey in the drum that he had purchased for resale) who sent the same barrels back to him several times for liquefying...it is not true that there is no reason to filter honey....I don't want it, but many do.

    Deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  5. #385
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I was under the impression that the off shore honey was being Ultra filtered to remove antibiotic residues and heavy metal contamination. They are telling me micron filters ,.? ( I was not aware it was possible up til these last couple of years ) And I guess on a side benefit to them they would also make the honey untraceable to its origin.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  6. #386
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Jim, what was the source of the Dew? Aphids or naturally occuring seeping? As to carrots, why is everyone thinking there's no nectar? Ever seen a carrot bloom? Huge umbels, quite smelly though, not a ton of nectar, but if you were to rub your hand over it, it would get sticky.

  7. #387
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I agree, very few if not any producers filter their wholesale honey
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #388
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Pinpointing source of honeydew can be difficult, I think. The experience that I had with it was from large infestations of aphids on ash trees. At least, that was the most abundant source of honeydew in the area that I could find. I'm curious, too, Jim, if you tracked down a source?

    I did pull up the definitions of honey used by the USDA. You can read them for yourselves here:

    http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getf...STELDEV3011895

    Seems to me that filtering out pollen and other suspensions actually moves honey up the grade scale. Bear in mind that I'm not advocating one way or the other here, just stating the way that I read the standards.

  9. #389
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    when honey is graded at a fair or show, clarity is very important
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #390
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    And, from the Codex Alimentarius Commission (commission created by the United Nations), another detailed definition of honey:

    http://www.codexalimentarius.org/inp...0/cxs_012e.pdf.

    This one states that pollen should not be filtered out completely or in part.

  11. #391
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    Pinpointing source of honeydew can be difficult, I think. The experience that I had with it was from large infestations of aphids on ash trees. At least, that was the most abundant source of honeydew in the area that I could find. I'm curious, too, Jim, if you tracked down a source.
    We called it Honeydew only through the process of elimination. There was simply nothing else in bloom. It was in hilly pasture ground that had a lot of clover blooming early that quickly dried up in the drought. We took off the clover honey, put an empty super back on and were planning on moving all the bees out of the area. Before we got around to it we noticed that the boxes were filling up with a very dark honey. We thoroughly (we thought) drove around the area looking for a possible source but there was nothing to be seen but brown drought stressed pasture. There were however a lot of cedar and scrub oak trees in the valleys that I never even considered looking at. After several samples gave us no pollen clues we were left with the possible, and plausible, scenario that insects desperate for water had bored into these trees releasing the honeydew sap. It made sense the more I read about the nature of the flow. It was never heavy, never had excited roaring bees in the air just a slow steady approximately 2 pound a day daily gain. Many hives filled up 2 mediums in something over a month. One of the more remarkable beekeeping experiences I have ever seen.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #392
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I agree, very few if not any producers filter their wholesale honey
    Ian,

    How you can explain the NHB's statement, that I mentioned in my post #380

    And what is your opinion about these two big Packers:
    http://www.suebee.com/?q=node/32
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDtClXCM1_I

    And how about this:
    “Huser said the Sioux Honey Association and other producers shun ultra-filtration in favor of a more traditional, much less aggressive technique, called macro filtration, to remove bee parts, wax and other debris from the hive.
    "When we do that, we incidentally remove most (!!!) of the pollen," he said.”…
    According to the Food Safety News story, Sue Bee Honey "declined repeated requests for comments on ultra-filtration, what Sue Bee does with its foreign honey and whether it's ultra-filtered when they buy it."
    http://siouxcityjournal.com/business...754760d83.html

  13. #393
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Really neat, Jim. I've watched bees (not mine) collecting honeydew from corn leaf aphids in a heavily infested corn field. I've tasted honey that I was told came from honeydew from aphids on pine trees (I have no reason to doubt that it did).

    From the honeydew "flow" that I experienced, it was fairly short lived. Not much else was in bloom for about two weeks, and the bees brought it in at the time. As soon as other flowers started blooming, the bees seemed to switch back to floral sources. Maybe the bees needed pollen sources again as much or more than they needed carbohydrates? Maybe collecting nectar was easier or more efficient than collected honeydew?

  14. #394
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Boris, your a NUT

    Leave the names of packers out of your crazy theories

    >>>>there are bee farms that produce 2/3 of the annual honey production in North America by force feeding their bees high fructose corn syrup or other sugars, and keeping them under 24-hour hive lighting so that they will produce honey year round (the remaining 1/3 of honey produced in N.A. is pure honey)<<<<


    Your absolutely NUTS
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #395
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    ...Leave the names of packers out of your crazy theories
    So, who are you - a misinformer?...

    In fact this not my statement and not my theories: "“Huser said the Sioux Honey Association and other producers shun ultra-filtration in favor of a more traditional, much less aggressive technique, called macro filtration, to remove bee parts, wax and other debris from the hive.
    "When we do that, we incidentally remove most (!!!) of the pollen," he said.”…
    According to the Food Safety News story, Sue Bee Honey "declined repeated requests for comments on ultra-filtration, what Sue Bee does with its foreign honey and whether it's ultra-filtered when they buy it."
    http://siouxcityjournal.com/business...754760d83.html

  16. #396
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    How you can explain the NHB's statement, that I mentioned in my post #380... -Boris
    I'm not sure that the article linked and quoted (found here: http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/0.../#.UR00aGihBSV) is really a statement by the NHB.

    However, I think "producers" are being confused with "packers" in some of the posts on this thread.

    The beekeepers who pull the honey off of their hives are the "producers."

    The companies that bottle and distribute the liquid honey are the "packers."

  17. #397
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    Midland OR. United States
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    102

    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    A few years back I used to help an old neighbor with his bees. A commercial guy stopped by one day to visit and gave us a four gallon bucket of carrot honey. It was one of the worst things I have ever tasted in my life. We ended up pitching it in the garbage.

  18. #398
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Boris,
    producer packer producer packer producer packer producer packer
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #399
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    I'm not sure that the article linked and quoted (found here: http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/0.../#.UR00aGihBSV) is really a statement by the NHB.

    However, I think "producers" are being confused with "packers" in some of the posts on this thread.

    The beekeepers who pull the honey off of their hives are the "producers."

    The companies that bottle and distribute the liquid honey are the "packers."
    "National Honey Board: Honey is Made from Nectar, Not Pollen"
    BY BRUCE BOYNTON
    "Bruce Boynton is CEO of the National Honey Board..."

    And this thread is about FINAL product!!!
    Last edited by Boris; 02-14-2013 at 12:23 PM.

  20. #400
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    As a friendly piece of advice, Boris, you've stuck your neck out on this thread with some of the insinuations and allegations that you've leveled against a particular business. If you have evidence to back it up, it's time to present it, I think. Otherwise, you might consider moderating your comments and/or avoiding naming specific individuals/businesses in your posts.

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