Tests Show Most Store Honey Isn’t Honey

[Boris]

... It's hard to consider anything short of that a discussion....deknow

I need Ian's reply to my post #290 to finalize my statement and to show some differences between HONEY and PROCESSED HONEY.

I hope we will get some answers soon.

Boris Romanov

[deknow]

Regarding the beauty of raw honey....

At least around here, much of the "local" liquid honey found at farmers markets actually comes from a single migratory operation. Aside from the adulteration in this honey we have reported on several times on beesource, I don't think it tastes very good, and I've never been at a market where anyone was offering tastes of this honey (it requires working with the health dept., and can be a cumbersome process).

I like the taste and texture of crystallized honey. I'm always amazed when I hear about competitive honey showing...either totally liquid, or very small smooth crystals need apply. What a stupid way to judge honey. Bob Brachmann's goldenrod honey crystallizes with the smallest, smoothest crystals you can imagine....the melt as they touch your tounge. Dee's honey usually has a crystal size about that of table sugar....you can put it on a spoon and nibble on it for a half hour.

But the real bueauty of raw honey is its stability. Sugar is the "money" in natures economy. Plants make it, and it is traded up and down the food chain, providing both energy and a currency with which to conduct "the business of nature".

It is metabolically expensive to concentrate sugar. When sugar is concentrated, it becomes a more enticing target for those looking to aquire sugar...like robbing a bank rather than mugging an individual.

Plants, the producers of sugar, use all kinds of techniques to guard their precious stored energy....they produce toxins that are effective against microbes and larger predators....essential oils, acids, etc are produced at great cost to protect the sap and unripe fruit from being eaten by microbes or biger things.

Yet, nectar is freely offered by the plants for anyone that wants to come by and take it...and do a little pollinating in the process. Bees expend the energy to actually remove so much moisture from the nectar, that it doesn't spoil....it is so rich and so rare in nature, that there aren't microbes that are equipped to eat it. Bees are (apparently) the only life on the planet that protects its sugar in this way.....a unique enough solution to a problem that everyone else on the planet has solved a different way, that there is no microbial threat to raw honey....not true of any other raw food or any other accumulation of sugar in nature.

Because it is so concentrated, and because a store of honey is such an inviting target, bees are also equipped to defend it.

There is simply nothing else in nature that is such a high concentration of microbial "food", that microbes don't know what to do with it.

deknow

[Rader Sidetrack]

I need Ian's reply to my post #290 to finalize my statement and to show some differences between HONEY and PROCESSED HONEY.

If you can't tell us exactly what constitutes honey, without input from Ian, why did you even start this thread without being able to define honey?

[Ian]

Boris, Alberta and Manitoba Honey Producers provide the honey to BeeMaid honey, our marketing arm, to process for retail sales. First off, get that right....
I am a member of the Manitoba Honey Producers, Im a beekeeper.... second off get that right ...
I dont know how BeeMaid handles the product, Im a primary food producer,
I DO know of the standards they implement in handling and processing the honey as that is relevant to my operation.
I would suggest, as they describe on the website, they melt granulated honey out of the drum, they filter it, they pasteurize and prepare it according to the orders. Typical practice done by large and small honey packers.

If your going to make general sweeping negative claims against the packing industry, I would suggest you start leaving the name of the packers out of the conversation.
As I have asked you many times before,

[deknow]

There is not a question that there are differences between comb honey, raw honey, and heated/filtered honey. No one has disputed this in 300 + posts.

You have been, for 300+ posts, arguing about what is or isn't honey....thus far, 300+ posts into this (which you started), no one has any idea what kind of criteria you are using to make this distinction....your contributions are worthless because they are based on something that only exists in your head. Even a Mac vs PC debate has valid criteria for making a judgement as to which is "better".

How Ian's honey is processed has nothing to do with what you think is honey and what you think isn't.

deknow

[Kieck]

Nice post #302, deknow. Your comments are very eloquent, almost read like poetry. Your passion for the topic comes through nicely.

At the same time, you seem to nicely leave room so that those consumers who prefer a different form don't feel wrong for their preferences. Great salesmanship, I think.

[cerezha]

Sergery your logic is slightly flawed here in relation to the topic. If H2O can only contain H2O to qualify as water (which is what you are stating), then how can pure water be more water than water with additional content? It can't be water if it has additional content according to your logic above. It would have to qualify simply as a solution. Possibly break it down with percentages of the solution CO2, CH4, H20, FE, S, CI, F, HOPS, Barley, Yeast, etc...

Yes, I agree, it is a solution. Pure water is more water in the sense that it contains more H2O. Since the term "water" is used in science, we have to specify what it is: "distilled water", ultrapure water", HPLC-grade water", "Cell-culture grade water"... HPLC-grade is the highest in quality. My point was that as less "additives" in water, it is closer to H2O and thus - more pure (better). This is not true for honey because honey is a compound material, which contains many components, sometime unknown. Removing or adding or modifying something from the complex mixture would unavoidable change the properties of this "compound material".

[Ian]

Ian,

Please do not tell me about standards - just simply describe in details a PROCESS.

Your the one insisting to know about HACCP and CFIA. Like I had said earlier, this regulatory process is way beyond you Boris

[beemandan]

Dean is right. Comb, raw and heated/filtered honey are each different. The rest is opinion. In the realm of opinions….no matter how long you argue you cannot sway the other party. It is a useless waste of time. It isn’t a question of right or wrong. It is opinion.
The dialog will go back and forth until someone tires and disengages. And at that time absolutely nothing will have changed. How long will you continue to kick this horse? It has been dead for a couple of hundred posts already.

[BMAC]

dont forget the odd bee leg and antenna

I had a buyer come to the honey house asking for whole honey one time, "you know, the stuff right from the tank, with the bee legs and all"

But its mostly honey. Or maybe its partly honey. Oh no the terminology is some honey.

[BMAC]

Removing or adding or modifying something from the complex mixture would unavoidable change the properties of this "compound material".

So removing a solid suspended in the compound material (18% H2O) such as pollen granules changes the properties of this compound material? Is this chemical or physical properties?

[cerezha]

Sergey,
Is honey a solution, as that term is defined scientifically?

It is a complex mixture, which contains soluble part (sugars) and insoluble part (pollen etc). Sugars, soluble minerals etc creates a solution in the water; insoluble matter (pollen etc) is suspended in solution. So, when liquid, it is a solution and suspension at the same time. It is not a gel, by the way, how somebody suggested.

[Ian]

I have often wondered how the pollen get into the honey naturally,

Does the bee ingest the pollen while taking up the nectar or is the pollen accidentally dusted into the honey cells while the bees walk over head,.?
I know the beekeeper has alot to do with the addition of pollen as they extract the honey from the frames.
So, in the context of natural, what % of pollen in the honey would need to be present to qualify as HONEY, as some are suggesting here?

[cerezha]

Wait. I thought this was "pure" H2O here. Now you're telling me that the "pure" water has carbon dioxide in it?!?!...

Please read carefully before posting. I clearly stated that in the lab we DO NOT store water and use very expensive purification system to have pure water. Your example with water was not good because cleaner water is closer to its pure chemical form, which is opposite to what is happened with honey during "processing"... read, think ... than post

[Kieck]

Naw, Sergey, I get it. I got it before. What I was attempting to drive home is that even water with other things in it is commonly called "water," and is accepted by most of the public as such.

Water is easy, comparatively. It has a simple chemical structure. Honey, I think, is quite different. Honey that comes off from a legume flow -- such as predominantly clover -- is decidedly different than mixed wildflower honey is different than buckwheat honey is different than honeydew honey (which, by the way, should almost certainly have no pollen naturally in it). All are "honey." All are chemically different. Therefore, "honey" must cover quite a range. The moisture content varies, the floral sources vary, the amounts of pollen if any vary, the pH varies, and none of it might be consistent even within a hive from one day to the next.

[cerezha]

So removing a solid suspended in the compound material (18% H2O) such as pollen granules changes the properties of this compound material? Is this chemical or physical properties?

It depends from the content of the "compound material". Simplest example - epoxy resin. Adding catalyst will change a physical state of the compound. But, if you will keep epoxy mixture (no catalyst) in the heat, plastifier will change and polymerized resin become fragile. Also, storing epoxy resin in the heat even without catalyst will eventually lead to polymerization. It is just ridiculously stupid to think about honey in such simplified way that syrup is equal to honey. Did anybody ever think why honey is much less crystallized if stored in the honey comb? I have 2-years honey comb and honey is still liquid in it. Why? There are group of materials called emulsifiers - they keep suspension from precipitation. Wax and lecitin are quite effective emulsifiers. Now, think and made a connection, wax-liquid honey... interesting?

[cerezha]

I was raised on whole milk straight from the cow (my children also), water from a 340 ft. well fresh veg. from the garden and canned veg. from the garden for winter,Honey,and meat from animals we raised, and still do. Our two children are married and doing the same.We are all in good health and active (5 grandkids and all). I credit most from staying away from proccessed food and city water, that is supposed to be safer and better for you.I sell veg. and honey at our local Farmers Market, or i should say i take it to the Farmers Market, it sells itself.I don't find it difficult to say Raw honey has some food value (studies have shown it does) and the health value of Raw honey. Now if you want to eat proccessed honey with less food value and body parts cooked in, you can have my share.

Bravo!

[Ian]

Did anybody ever think why honey is much less crystallized if stored in the honey comb? I have 2-years honey comb and honey is still liquid in it. Why? There are group of materials called emulsifiers - they keep suspension from precipitation. Wax and lecitin are quite effective emulsifiers. Now, think and made a connection, wax-liquid honey... interesting?

That has more to do with the nectar sugars . Canola will granulate within weeks, hard as a rock un disturbed in the comb, while alfalfa honey will stay liquid in the comb for months before it granulates.

[deknow]

I have 2-years honey comb and honey is still liquid in it. Why? There are group of materials called emulsifiers - they keep suspension from precipitation. Wax and lecitin are quite effective emulsifiers. Now, think and made a connection, wax-liquid honey... interesting?

Um....I think the aeration of honey as it is flung against the extractor wall has quite a bit to do with why liquid honey tends to crystalize...this is true of extracted and never heated honey. We've had honey that stayed liquid in the bucket, until run through a course strainer...crystalized almost immediately, yet it had been out of the comb for months.

I also have combs that I could not extract because the goldenrod honey crystallized in the comb. If you had Tupelo honey or buckwheat honey in a jar, you would note that it never crystallized...even if it was never heated.

It is most unscientific and innaccurate to talk about two foodstuffs (honey and water), and hold one to a lab grade "purity" standard as a chemical compound, and the other to a "how it exists in nature" standard. Pure water of the type you describe simply does not exist outside your lab...that's why you have to produce it when you need it. Pure drinking water is not pure water.

deknow

[Boris]

Ian - nothing personal.
All brands of liquid processed honey (US or Canada) in my local Superstores are almost EQUAL...


In your post # 238 you stated: “…this whole idea that as soon as honey is sent through a machine it no longer is honey is absolutely ridiculous…”

Nevertheless, I cannot accept this and I would like to object to your statement.

My first argument is the undeniable basic: in general real HONEY (almost all types) HAVE to crystallize sooner or latter. Crystallization of honey is a natural process, which indicates its good quality. And as you know, several factors determine the time it will take honey to crystallize.
In my short video, I tried to show that crystallized HONEY remains solid even after of influences of heat (of course in a limited time)
From the other hand – “honey” from the Supermarkets (processed honey) LOSES ITS CRYSTAL STRUCTURE and therefore (mainly) remains liquid for many years without Crystallization!

My second argument.
For me HONEY is a remedy/medicine, but not just a sweetener, therefore I asked you to describe in details a process of packaging of any Canadian HONEY. It will help me to show that product you mentioned previously is not HONEY, but PROCESSED HONEY.
I tasted many brands of Processed Honey from my local Supermarkets, therefore I can explain you Why packers cannot call/label Processed/heated honey as Honey (view from the Medicine) based on the official studies.

So, if you wish – please find some details about your honey Processing procedure (temperature, time and filtration) and I will give you more explanation.

Boris Romanov