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  1. #181
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    To some extent at least, that is quite unfair. . .
    So...the same processing....some think it adds value, some think it subtracts value.
    Yes I completely agree, that about sums up this off shoot of the thread,
    except for the "not HONEY" comment, I will never agree on that point

    cheers!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  2. #182
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Lets be real here, it's a shame that in order to sell honey on the grocery shelve, Wal-Mart,ect. that it has to be heated over 200F + to pasteurize it and pressurize it through filters before it is put in jars an sold.If you don't it will crystallize and not sell.(to the retailer or customer). Like any food that is cooked at high temps., most all(if not all) the nutrients are cooked out, Most everyone have heard or read that honey is a good nutritious food, not so after pasteurized, to me you might as well eat Karo syrup on your biscuit, you would be getting about the same food value. As for the allergy argument whether raw honey helps or not, until there are more studies done on if it does or doesn't help, i'm going with the people who claim it's the Only thing that has helped or cured them. To say pasteurized honey is still honey i agree, but it is what it is pasterurized. It's not real, raw, unchanged from the nutrients still intact, honey.To the person who wants what they paid for.

  3. #183
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Yikes are we reaching a consensus? I'm not sure about the 200+ degree heating Brooks. I haven't heard of anything quite that harsh correct me if I'm wrong on that.

  4. #184
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I know of a common practice called a "flash treatment" where as the honey is heated in an extremely controlled fashion to kill off any yeast or bacterial in the honey. And when I say controlled, its done by the book, to the second of exposure. Much the same way milk is pasteurized, to kill off the botulism.,

    The way packers handle millions of pounds of honey, right from the beekeeper to the retail shelf is extremely interesting. It has it problems as does other food products but the ability for us to market that much honey to the entire consumer spectrum at such high standards is quite amazing
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I was wronge on the 200+ temp. i looked it up,160F + 72 c is more common, from what i've read and heard anything over 120F or 72 c the food value in honey starts to diminish. It's supposed to kill bacteria and stop crystallization at this temp.?

  6. #186
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I dont know about the retardation of granulation, filtering pollen out helps with that.
    It does kill all bacteria with a flash heat treatment though, much the same as they do with milk
    They are mostly targeting Botulism
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #187
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I dont know about the retardation of granulation, filtering pollen out helps with that.
    It does kill all bacteria with a flash heat treatment though, much the same as they do with milk
    They are mostly targeting Botulism
    Err...it takes 250F for a few minutes to kill botulism spores. I'm not sure there is any honey that is heated to that temp. There are other bacteria, yeasts, fungi, etc that are sometimes in honey, and honey is often pasteurized in order to kill any of these live organisms (some people with dietary restrictions can't eat honey that hasn't been pasteurized).

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  8. #188
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    http://www.beemaid.com/sweet-fact4
    Why pasteurize honey?

    Pasteurizing honey is a very different thing than pasteurizing milk or other dairy products, and it’s done for very different reasons. Because of its low moisture content and high acidity, bacteria and other harmful organisms cannot live or reproduce in honey, so pasteurization is not done for that purpose. One of the few things that can live in honey is yeast, although if the moisture content is below 18% (as it normally is), the yeast cells cannot reproduce. All nectar (the source for all honey) contains osmophilic yeasts, which can reproduce in higher-moisture content honey and cause fermentation. While fermented honey does not necessarily pose any health risk, we try to discourage it, so Bee Maid pasteurizes its honey to kill any latent yeast cells that might be present and to remove any chance of fermentation.

    Another side benefit of pasteurizing honey is that it will slow down the granulation process. Pasteurized honey will last longer in its liquid state than unpasteurized honey, which makes for a more appealing-looking product for both retailers and consumers.
    http://www.beemaid.com/sweet-fact5
    Sweet Fact 5
    How is honey pasteurized?

    We pasteurize our honey by a “flash heating” method, to minimize the amount of time that the honey is exposed to the heat and to reduce the risk of damaging or burning it. The honey is heated very quickly to about 160įF and then rapidly cooled, which will kill the yeast cells without damaging the product. This process is done on our production line during the packing procedure.
    I'm willing to bet the infant botulism warning is on all their honey.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  9. #189
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    I was wronge on the 200+ temp. i looked it up,160F + 72 c is more common, from what i've read and heard anything over 120F or 72 c the food value in honey starts to diminish. It's supposed to kill bacteria and stop crystallization at this temp.?
    What is the "food value" of raw honey?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  10. #190
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    looks like I stand corrected on the Botulism. Thought it got that too.
    250F for a few min would defiantly degrade the honey.

    I love the fact you pulled that off the BeeMaid site, Ha ha
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #191
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Looks like BeeMaid also offers an un pasteurized product
    http://www.beemaid.com/sweet-fact6
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #192
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I recall someone saying botulism wasn't a problem in honey typically and that the study done was that Karo syrup was the culprit but the honey board never sought to correct the claim that all honey is tainted with botulism when in fact it isnt?

  13. #193
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by brooksbeefarm View Post
    I was wronge on the 200+ temp. i looked it up,160F + 72 c is more common, from what i've read and heard anything over 120F or 72 c the food value in honey starts to diminish. It's supposed to kill bacteria and stop crystallization at this temp.?
    Yeah that sounds about right (or should I say correct) and I don't think it needs to be at that temp for more than a matter of minutes.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #194
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Ok, the title of the article and the thread are false and misleading. The "standard of identity for honey" is a work in progress, state by state and nation by nation. The statement made by the FDA about what "is or isn't honey" has not been finalized. The article itself said Food News Safety is waiting for the FDA to get back to them about what they consider honey as far as pollen content is concerned. It is inflammatory to degrade store shelf honey, containing little or no pollen, by claiming it's not real honey. There is no clear standard about honey and its pollen content. Save they claims of "not real honey" for the Syrups, and Sugars that everyone fights to keep off the shelf. Store shelf honey has been heated and filtered for generations. Very recent statements, which are ambiguous and incomplete, about things that are still a work in progress, should not be fraudulently used to indite an established industry.

    Here is the history. First, the big beekeeping groups worked to implement a tariff on honey from some countries. To avoid the tariff some countries transshipped honey to make it look like like it originated from a country with no tariff. To catch the cheats we started testing the raw bulk honey for pollen to see where it actually came from. Once pollen testing started, the cheats invented Ultra Filtration. So the american beekeeping groups worked to stop "Ultra Filtered imported bulk honey" because it hid the country of origin to avoid the tariff. Now our hard work to stabilize the bulk honey market has been turned against us by some people looking for a Headline. The tools and words used to stop transshipments of bulk imported honey are being used against domestic honey on the store shelf. It's a sloppy application and no one has given clarification yet. Note the article itself says the FDA has not yet given any guidance or clarification.

    ryan

  15. #195
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    What does a stable bulk honey market look like?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  16. #196
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Honey is a good sweetener, but I have yet to read or hear of much other nutritional value in it. The trace amounts of pollen may have some protein, I suppose, but at such low levels that nothing about it appears in nutritional information that I've seen. Other than calories from the sugars, what other nutritional value does honey have?

  17. #197
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    That was a good post ryan.


    >>I recall someone saying botulism wasn't a problem in honey typically <<

    JRG13 , ya I dont know the facts behind honey and botulism except that most all consumers link the two together. So I follow the same position ,...
    I cant see how its any different than any other raw food,
    People dont feed a new born baby garden carrots or beans
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #198
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    What does a stable bulk honey market look like?

    deknow
    perhaps stability where as imports are brought in following established trade agreements
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #199
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Thanks Ian

    I think if you look at the history of bulk prices from the 90s until today you will see severe ups and downs early on followed by steady and rising prices. Ending today with $2.00 honey and diminished worries about exporting countries wrecking our momentum like they did early on in the fight. It is an ongoing battle. I encourage support of the AHPA and ABF with all their efforts.

  20. #200
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Sorry to inform you of thi Tia, but you and your customers are operating under misunderstandings and selfdillusion. Seeing causeand effect where it doesn't exist. For one thing, the pollen you customers may be allergic to does nt exist in the honey you are selling them. The are allergic to windborn pollens, not the kind of pollens collected by bees.
    Mark, I don't think I've ever posted a reply in this forum where you didn't tell me I'm wrong. Since you're so sure of the right answers to everything (you must be a Republican) I think I'll just stop posting and learn from your future sage advice.

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