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  1. #141
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Other things bother me more. What is sold as honey appears to be honey. Only it doesn't have pollen in it....

    What purpose does the pollen in honey serve? And why do we say that the pollen is in the honey if it is integral to what honey is. How can the both exist independently if they are so integral?

    No one is being fooled or lied to by a label which identifies the contents of a jar as HONEY...
    Mark,

    I have a bad news for you.
    Below you can see a proof, that "honey" in Supermarkets is not real Honey anymore.
    As you can see - REAL HONEY it is not just an issue related to a pollen removal. For example Enzymes.

    "COMPARISON OF MINERAL AND ENZYME LEVELS IN RAW AND PROCESSED HONEY" - Research Project Funded by National Honey Board (!)

    "...Enzymes
    Without a doubt, heating and filtering honey reduces the final quantity of enzymes in
    honey. Enzyme levels dropped an average of about 35% when heating and DE filtration was
    used. Enzyme levels dropped about 15% using heating and straining. Enzymes such as
    invertase were nearly completely eliminated (!!!) by processing (average drop of 73%). Others,
    such as phosphatase dropped about 13%.
    That there was an average reduction is not a complete surprise—most enzymes are
    destroyed by heat. However, honey’s enzymes were not completely destroyed by processing.
    Quite the contrary, some enzymes increased after being blended. It is likely this occurred due
    to the highly variable nature of the honey samples. For instance, the range in enzyme levels
    for some honeys were two the three times higher from one sample to the next. "
    http://www.honey.com/images/uploads/...-raw-honey.pdf

    Is a level of Enzymesins in honey important? - see two examples from my previous posts.

    So, can you label a 1% Milk as a Whole Milk?
    Therefore I think your statement: "...No one is being fooled or lied to by a label which identifies the contents of a jar as HONEY" is incorrect.

    If we are thinking about ethical behavior - the Packers should use the labels similar to these: "Filtered Honey", "Processed Honey", "Heated Honey" and so on.

    Boris Romanov
    Last edited by Boris; 02-10-2013 at 09:07 AM.

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Yup, I agree Brooksbeefarm
    Seen honey on the shelf from a local producer the other day, in clear jars, who was selling clover creamed honey, and wild flower creamed honey. Both honeys were the same white honey colour. It would pass for maybe canola honey, but not wild flower honey. Wild flower honey typically is dark from around here.
    Little does the consumer know, how would they know any different
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Boris, I have listened to your talk along now,

    the fact of the matter is the way packers handle our honey is the most economically way to process honey. I ship out 250 barrels of honey every year, as do many other beekeepers associated to our packing group. That honey is stored, cleaned, processed according to the buyers order, packed and then shipped out to the retailers shelves. And from there, the honey sits for a customer to buy it. Quality constancy and availability is what consumers want, we provide it to them.

    To supply the market place with honey anyother way would not only cost the beekeeper more in processing costs, it would cost the consumer.
    We do the best we can to supply the consumer with good quality honey.

    If they want raw unfiltered un heated honey, they can go straight to the beekeeper

    I cant imagine my packer trying to handle 15000000 of honey without filtering and "processing" the honey first
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    Is a level of Enzymesins in honey important? - see two examples from my previous posts.
    So, can you label a 1% Milk as a Whole Milk?
    Well, milk is an interesting example. Pasteurized milk has less enzymes than raw milk does, yet it can still be considered "whole milk".
    Is it true that raw milk has more enzymes and nutrients than pasteurized milk?

    While it’s true that the heating process of pasteurization does inactivate some enzymes in milk, the enzymes in raw animal milk are not thought to be important in human health. Some nutrients are somewhat reduced in raw milk, but the United States diet generally has plenty of other sources of these nutrients. For example, vitamin C is reduced by pasteurization, but raw milk is not a major source of vitamin C.
    http://www.cdc.gov/foodsafety/rawmil...s.html#enzymes
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Boris, I have listened to your talk along now,

    the fact of the matter is the way packers handle our honey is the most economically way to process honey. I ship out 250 barrels of honey every year, as do many other beekeepers associated to our packing group. That honey is stored, cleaned, processed according to the buyers order, packed and then shipped out to the retailers shelves. And from there, the honey sits for a customer to buy it. Quality constancy and availability is what consumers want, we provide it to them.

    To supply the market place with honey anyother way would not only cost the beekeeper more in processing costs, it would cost the consumer.
    We do the best we can to supply the consumer with good quality honey.

    If they want raw unfiltered un heated honey, they can go straight to the beekeeper

    I cant imagine my packer trying to handle 15000000 of honey without filtering and "processing" the honey first
    Ian,
    I cannot accept your comments, especially with your previous statements: "I do not know how much of a problem filtered honey is, Im not completely familiar with packer practices.
    But, what I do know is how my packer operates, to which Im a part of. Kinda makes me feel all good and fuzzy inside,
    www.beemaid.com" (your Post #96).

    I know about www.beemaid.com" very well. I tried BeeMaid "honey" from my local Shop Rite Superstore, therefore I cannot call it HONEY.

    Boris Romanov

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I dont see anything wrong with what I said, read it again if you please,

    I dont know where I said "(your Post #very well. I tried it from my local Shop Rite Superstore, therefore I cannot call it HONEY."
    Im not going to check back through the thread for that one, but its not from me, whats a Shop Rite Superstore?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I have a feeling you dont peddle much honey Boris . . . .
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    One of the interesting things we encounter at the markets is that many people from many parts of the world have "tests" to perform to see if honey is pure. These range from seeing how it "drips" (almost everything we sell is crystallized beyond "dripping"), what a match does when put to the honey...some just assume that if it is crystallized it has had sugar added.

    Another thing we joke about is people who turn down a taste of honey because they "know what honey tastes like"....when we have goldenrod honey from NY, clover/basswood/wildflower honey from Vermont, and usually at least 3 distinct honeys from Arizona (from almost white to almost black).

    One time a few years ago, a local health food store owner told me that they had been having the honey tested....I was quite curious, as at the time I didn't know anything about how to go about having honey tested....I thought I was talking to someone more expert than myself. It turned out to be "muscle testing" (essentailly, the "tester" asking themselves if the honey is pure, and seeing how hard it is for them to pull their own fingers apart as a way to test the purity of honey).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_kinesiology
    ...no, I'm not kidding.

    If you want to start tossing around accusations of something specific that isn't honey, probably more is required than seeing or tasting it....there is just too much variation.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Ian,

    Please reload your browser prior to visit your post #96

    Boris Romanov

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I have a feeling you dont peddle much honey Boris . . . .
    It's true - I'm not a commercial beekeeper. I am who I am, and website clearly describes my beekeeping practises.

    But why BeeMaid doesn't use labels that I proposed in my post # 141 ?

    Boris Romanov

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Those of us who produce and market honey on a large scale get a bit testy when a thread like this shows up and you find yourself in a cyber-debate with someone that has little or no background in either honey production or marketing. I, like Ian, sell large quantities of honey. What we sell is a marvelous product, no different than what the beekeeper raises who has a hive or two in their backyard. In many cases better depending on the investment the producer has made in stainless honey handling equipment where you can easily spend $100,000 on an extracting system. We have families and workers with families, and lots and lots of other expenses. So who is going to buy this crop? We sure don't have the time to try to market a few hundred pounds here and there. There are only a few major packers that market honey to the majority of honey consumers in the country and they are for the most part very reputable. When you sell your crop to them it isn't accepted until it is tested for adulterants and chemical residues. They process it and pack it in the manner that their customers demand and that they have found to be profitable. If they aren't profitable they are not in business. I understand these realities, Ian and some others "get" it as well. We don't appreciate uninformed and slanted articles such as this implying that the consumer is being given something other than what they thought they were getting. I wish everyone could be informed about the quality of unprocessed raw honey, it sure would make things easier for everyone in this industry. Unfortunately they aren't. I learned first hand the cost of chargebacks when grocers pulled my granulated product off the shelf. In the meantime I give little credence in listening to the lectures by those whose breadth of knowledge in this area is pretty much what they just learned about somewhere and graciously provided a link so we can all be as informed as they are.
    Last edited by Barry; 02-10-2013 at 11:20 AM. Reason: highlight
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Lets highlight Post # 151

    Thats as basic as it gets,

    Boris, did you read post # 151 ?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Boris, oh I think I see what you were trying to say,

    Glad you like BeeMaid honey, we are very proud of our product
    Last edited by Ian; 02-10-2013 at 11:53 AM.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Jim, we also need it all in bold type ha ha ha
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Boris, as I think I said before, I don't worry about that stuff. I sell my honey and don't worry much about what others do. But thanks. Knowledge is power and good to know. Now I am going to go buy a Slurpee and not worry about what is in it.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Those of us who produce and market honey on a large scale get a bit testy when a thread like this shows up and you find yourself in a cyber-debate with someone that has little or no background in either honey production or marketing....
    Well, I have to admit, I feel exact the same way when people without any credentials keep talking about matters in which they are null! For instance most of the cries regarding how pollen is not part of the whole honey especially deknow speculations regarding pollen and allergy... Having doctorate degree in molecular immunology and spending last 30 years working in this field , it just amused me how people may be so ignorant in immunology. I was trying to offer my expertise in other threads, but it just does not work and feels so hopeless... Also, it looks like, the forum is heavily biased towards large-scale honey producers, which makes me feel that I am not welcome here. Sad. Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Well, I have to admit, I feel exact the same way when people without any credentials keep talking about matters in which they are null! For instance most of the cries regarding how pollen is not part of the whole honey especially deknow speculations regarding pollen and allergy... Having doctorate degree in molecular immunology and spending last 30 years working in this field , it just amused me how people may be so ignorant in immunology. I was trying to offer my expertise in other threads, but it just does not work and feels so hopeless... Also, it looks like, the forum is heavily biased towards large-scale honey producers, which makes me feel that I am not welcome here. Sad. Sergey
    I'll make you a deal Sergey I wont suggest that folks with degrees in molecular immunology aren't "real" immunologists if you would stop suggesting that the product that we raise isn't "real" honey since, like you, that is the field I have been working in for the past 30 years.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    I'll make you a deal Sergey I wont suggest that folks with degrees in molecular immunology aren't "real" immunologists...
    Well, the allergy as a disease lies exactly in the area of molecular immunology. From another hand I really do not care what you think about my credentials. My credentials are supported by more than 50 research articles in pier-reviewed journals and by my appointment as a research scientist at the university medical school. What is your credentials other than 30 years of doing ...what? Beekeeping? Do you have a degree, which one? I have masters in human physiology and actually two doctorate degrees: in molecular biology and immunology. I am sorry for being clear in my words, but you provoke me. Also, do not be so manipulative: "that the product that we raise isn't "real" honey" - look at the title of the thread. Could you read? "Tests Show Most Store Honey Isn’t Honey." I do not think that "store honey" is what you are making... I have deep respect to your business, but I could not tolerate the ignorance. So be respectful to others opinions and read the titles of the thread. I am not making any "deals." I apologize for inconvenience. Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    and you are wondering why you dont feel welcome here? are you kidding me?
    happy thoughts Sergy, happy thoughts

    Im sucking on a spoon full of honey right now, boy is that good !
    Last edited by Ian; 02-10-2013 at 09:55 PM.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Sergey: I think we would all be interested in hearing more about your resume as it relates to what actually constitutes honey and any direct experience you have in handling, processing and packaging honey. My apologies if I am the only one here that has missed your name in the industry publications?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

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