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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    I believe sqkcrk is selling honey with pollen in it. That is, I doubt he is filtering out all of the pollen in his honey. The folks that buy his honey buy it based on color and taste. They could analyze the pollen in that honey. But they buy based on color and taste, not pollen analysis.
    If he did not do pollen analysis, how he could prove/know that there is pollen in it? It is first person, who could determine pollen content by color and taste! Remarkable!
    Серёжа, Sergey

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I believe you misunderstand, cerezha. Sqkcrk harvests honey from his hives. He does not filter through filters small enough to remove pollen (jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here, Mark). Most likely, that honey contains pollen. However, that honey is not tested for the presence or absence of pollen. Not only that, the buyers are not testing it for presence or absence of pollen. They like the color of the honey and the taste of the honey, and they buy it.

    Have you had buyers pull samples from barrels to analyze the pollen before they purchase from you?

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieck View Post
    ...Have you had buyers pull samples from barrels to analyze the pollen before they purchase from you?
    I have no barrels of honey and I do not sell - I am giving away all my honey. I am a hobbyist, only 2 hives permitted.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Someone stated:

    I am aware of no honey standard that requires that there be pollen in honey.

    To the best of my knowledge, Florida, and then California, have laws stating that the pollen can not be removed. If it has been removed, it can not be labeled as honey.

    There is a case pending in the San Francisco area I believe. It was weakly constructed, and has undergone revisions. Try a google search. Sue Bee is the defendant.

    Sugar ratios are not a good test, very easy to fake, just add the right sugars.

    Deknow - what test did you use to determine it was beet sugar? I hope not Polarmetrics.

    Crazy Roland

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    ...We are all mammals here. One characteristic of mammals of hair. If someone loses all their hair thru chemotherapy are they no longer a mammal?
    In my opinion this example is incorrect, because normally “after chemotherapy hair does grow back.” ... “Don't let your hair loss bother you too much. It's an unfortunate side effect of chemotherapy that just about everyone goes through. But thankfully, it is temporary (!!!)-- and it's helping you battle your disease.”
    http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-a...s/chemotherapy

    But who will restore extracted pollen?

    Therefore I think this example does not reflect the core of the problem, that was raised in the article. And in such situation I can give you my counter-example.
    As we know in general ( without intervention of beekeepers or somebody else ) honey contains a pollen.
    On the other hand, there is a common definition of man: in English, man refers to an adult human male .... "Although men typically have a male reproductive system” (in a normal situation - without intervention of doctors ).

    That means a man without a main part of his reproductive system (castrated man) is not a man anymore...
    .
    So, "honey" without pollen is not honey anymore, because one natural component was removed forever.

    The question is very simple - why they (National Honey Board, ABF an so on) still did not create a comprehensive standard, that simply will force to name modified honey as "Filtered Honey", "Processed Honey", Honey Heated to the Level 1 (2,3...), Sugar/Syrup Honey and so on.
    Instead of this they posted brainwashing articles similar to this:
    National Honey Board: "Honey is Made from Nectar, Not Pollen"
    http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/0.../#.URPjkB1Fln4

    Boris Romanov

    P.S.
    Influence Industry: U.S. honey industry asks FDA for national purity standard
    "...Industry groups and some lawmakers are also pressing the Food and Drug Administration to establish a national "standard of identity" for honey to ensure that products are 100 percent pure, rather than diluted with other sweeteners to cut costs or evade import restrictions...."
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...063005309.html
    Last edited by Boris; 02-07-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    How you could do pollen analysis if it is filtered out? Non-sense.
    No honey producers have the equipment necassary to remove pollen. So I don't understand your reply.

    Any assumptions about what the vast number of honey consumers across the Nation want or know is not worth a dime w/out widespread real consumer survey information. So saying what honey consumers want or know about what they are buying is purely speculation and foolish.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Yes Kieck, that is so. But I was refering to buyers of barrels too, such as McClure's, a subsidurary of Dutch Gold, and all of the other Packers I have dealt w/ and have knowledge of. None of them ask for a pollen sample, only a honey sample. They check color, taste, and moisture content. I'm sure they test for other things too, but color, taste and moisture content is what they base what they pay on.

    I sold 4 buckets of honey on the way to SC last Saturday. My buyer wanted to know if it tasted good and was on the light side of the color spectrum. Before I got to Missouri he called me to see if I would bring him 4 more because it was all gone already. No body mentioned pollen. Anecdotal as that is and as are all of my experiences selling honey I think what I experience has some weight, being as I sell tons of honey. And some here in this discussin sell none. Some of y'all don't even seem to buy any.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    If he did not do pollen analysis, how he could prove/know that there is pollen in it? It is first person, who could determine pollen content by color and taste! Remarkable!
    Sergey, are you being serious? I thought we were discussing HONEY, the selling and buying of it, and whether pollen is necassary to make honey honey. Not pollen. I don't sell pollen. Well, I guess I do, just like I sell the containers in which the honey I sell is in. I don't know where you are going w/ this.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    I have no barrels of honey and I do not sell - I am giving away all my honey. I am a hobbyist, only 2 hives permitted.
    Which rally makes me woner why you are so concerned about any of this. By the way, thanks for taking food from the mouths of us who make our living selling honey.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #90
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    Fair Grove,MO,USA
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    People are becoming more aware of what they are eating, at least in my neck of the woods. I sell honey from home and the local Farmers Market, most all ask if it is raw (uncooked) honey and if it's local honey. They like coming to the farm because they can see my hives and know it's local and they stock up for winter, because they know if i run out i won't have more till next July or Aug. I've had some get upset when i run out and they come to the house,had some say, well your hives are right down there, can't you go get me some. Some people don't understand that there is a big differents in strained honey and filtered honey, heated and filtered honey is a world apart from raw honey.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    I do everything I can to educate the consumer what they are getting when they buy honey from me, and I also let them know how the majority of supermarket honey's are processed. I coarse strain my honey with minimal heating to make straining quicker and that's about it. I tell consumers that most supermarket honey is fine filtered to remove the pollen and that it is heated to a high temperature to retard granulation, which destroys nutrients. I let them make the decision which honey to buy after that. John
    By telling customers that most supermarket honey is fine filtered trash can be harmful to the sale of honey in the supermarkets. There are alot of local honey producers who do not fine filter at high heats also to consider in said supermarkets. I can name 10 in my area alone to include myself.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    It's a basic tenent of Marketing that one not run down their competition. A rule not always held to. Bt it is basically not a good idea. Tell your own story, sell your own honey. What others do is not your responsibility. Perhaps you should have some knowledge of what they do so you can address questions from customers, but generally speaking you will be better off refering them to the company in question, lest you misspeak and misrepresent.

    Mind your own peas and cues.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Now if those honey handlers, who filter their honey to remove unwanted "things" in their honey, would just buy some local clean pollen and mix it in to the honey batch, they would be selling honey again, , . . right?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Ian, the way you think is beginning to scare me. So how long will it take the Chinese to start buying American pollen to add to their rice syrup?

    Sqkcrk wrote:

    It's a basic tenent of Marketing that one not run down their competition.

    Let's not forget this one....


    Crazy Roland

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Now if those honey handlers, who filter their honey to remove unwanted "things" in their honey, would just buy some local clean pollen and mix it in to the honey batch, they would be selling honey again, , . . right?
    Well, it looks like Mark's equation: syrup+pollen = honey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I do not know how much of a problem filtered honey is, Im not completely familiar with packer practices.

    But, what I do know is how my packer operates, to which Im a part of. Kinda makes me feel all good and fuzzy inside,

    www.beemaid.com

    They are moving in the direction of 100% CFIA compliant producers. This honey will be trackable from the store shelf right back to the bee hive. All honey packed , and I think it 15 000 000 lbs or so is produced by Canadian prairie beekeepers.
    If consumers really give a dam about purity, tractability and high standards we should pretty much hold the market

    But Im not holding my breath
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    They are moving in the direction of 100% CFIA compliant producers. This honey will be trackable from the store shelf right back to the bee hive. All honey packed , and I think it 15 000 000 lbs or so is produced by Canadian prairie beekeepers.
    If consumers really give a dam about purity, tractability and high standards we should pretty much hold the market

    But Im not holding my breath
    What Bee Maid is doing is really admirable Ian. Perhaps I am too pessimistic but I think that the majority of the time a honey purchase is an impulse purchase made in a large supermarket by a hurried, stressed and budget conscious consumer often with a child in tow begging for a $7 box of Fruit Loops. In that 10 second decision making scenario, unfortunately, price trumps all. Someone prove me wrong........please!
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  18. #98
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    Haymarket, Virginia
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I think it would depend on what type of supermarket. We have some large "upscale" supermarkets here where the consumers are, or think they are, pretty food savvy. Of course, you have the opposite at the normal (aka affordable) chains that certainly fit Jim's description. Is it possible for you commercial to target this "upscale" demographic outside of farmer's markets and niche health food stores?

    I don't yet have a dog in the fight, but that doesn't mean I don't care.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Now if those honey handlers, who filter their honey to remove unwanted "things" in their honey, would just buy some local clean pollen and mix it in to the honey batch, they would be selling honey again, , . . right?
    Ian, in my opinion your assumption is incorrect, because of at least two reasons:

    1. During an ultrafiltration process tiny particles of wax are also removed.

    2. Usually during an ultrafiltration process honey heated to 150(įF) to 170(įF) to more easily pass through the fine filter. In such situation the major downside to ultrafiltration is that it eliminates nutritionally valuable enzymes found in raw honey, such as diastase and invertase.
    “Typically enzymes are proteins of complex structure that catalyze a specific chemical reaction. They are sensitive to heat (!!!), visible and UV light and other forms of energy such as microwaves.”
    http://www.airborne.co.nz/enzymes.shtml

    “Heating destroys hydrogen peroxide activity, a natural component of raw, unprocessed honey. Hydrogen peroxide is one of the mayor elements that makes honey a powerful antibacterial agent and healer.”
    You can get more details from this book: “The Honey Prescription: The Amazing Power of Honey as Medicine” by Nathaniel Altman (page #35).

    In addition you can see two examples from my previous post # 71


    So, the Rubicon (the point of no return) is passed during an ultrafiltration process of honey.

    Boris Romanov

    P.S.
    "Ingredients of Beeswax:
    • Beeswax is a mixture of many chemical compounds
    • Essential ingredients (monoesters, diesters, triethers and oxi-ethers) - 70 -75%
    • Free fatty acids (carotene, montanin and oleic) - 13 - 15%
    • Saturated hydrocarbons - 12 - 17%
    • Water - 0,4%
    • Carbohydrates (heptacosane and pentacosane)
    • Aromatic substances
    • Coloring agents
    • Organic and mineral substances.
    Yellow wax contains the largest amount of vitamin A."
    Last edited by Boris; 02-08-2013 at 08:56 AM.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    Well, it looks like Mark's equation: syrup+pollen = honey
    Please don't put words in my mouth or incorrectly interpret what I write. Thanks.

    Boris, can you please list for me which Packers ultrafilter their honey? By name please. And sight the source of your information too. Thanks. I'd like to know. And what kind of machinery and handling techniques are they using to do this ultrafiltration.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

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