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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    It says that the pollen was removed. It didn't say that it isn't honey.
    I'm not defending the study, BUT, right there in the fifth paragraph:

    In the U.S., the Food and Drug Administration says that any product that’s been ultra-filtered and no longer contains pollen isn’t honey. However, the FDA isn’t checking honey sold here to see if it contains pollen.

    http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2011/11/tests-show-most-store-honey-isnt-honey/#.UREJCB19L26
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I see. Thanks. Then what is it?

    On another question about honey. I saw a "Bar Rescue" reality show and saw a Bartender mixing a drink w/ what he called "honey". I doubt it was really honey. Not the way it poured just like all the other mixers. So, wht was it? Anybody know?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    I'm not defending the study, BUT, right there in the fifth paragraph:
    ...and there is where the problem lays Graham. We are grouping what are accepted filtration practices (not saying its good, just that it is commonly done to extend shelf life) together with ultra-filtration done by those who are trying to conceal what they are importing into the country. In short we are assigning devious motives to a process that has been used by honey packers for decades. I am aware of no honey standard that requires that there be pollen in honey. Whether there should be such a requirement is a whole different argument. Personally I wish there were. I think packers can tweak there process a bit and still get pretty good shelf life on their product. Let's just not paint them as criminals for doing what they have always done.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Jim, I agree with you. As I pointed out in my first post, any study that examines the pollen in KFC "honey sauce", which is labeled as only 7% honey, is not worth the paper its printed on.

    And yes, I know its an electronic file, not paper.

    P.S. Even though the article claims the US FDA says that honey without pollen is not honey, I question whether that statement is in fact accurate.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    It is not nice that the FDA makes statements w/out definition.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    New Import Alert 36-01

    (Note: This import alert represents the Agency's current guidance to FDA field personnel regarding the manufacturer(s) and/or products(s) at issue. It does not create or confer any rights for or on any person, and does not operate to bind FDA or the public).

    Import Alert # 36-01
    Published Date: 10/02/2012
    Type: DWPE with Surveillance
    Import Alert Name:
    "Adulteration of Honey"

    Reason for Alert:
    NOTE: The revision of this Import Alert dated 8/27/2012 updates the Guidance section by providing additional information about the release of shipments subject to detention without physical examination, the technical reviews of private analytical packages, and the process for removal from detention without physical examination. Changes are noted and bracketed by three asterisks (***).

    During the mid 1990s, detentions of imported honey from Brazil, Mexico, and the Soviet Union occurred due to adulteration with corn or cane sugars.

    These detentions were based on analytical results received from Geochron Laboratories. This fast analytical technique measures the C-13/C-12 isotope ratio of the sugars in the sample.

    !!! FDA laboratories do not have the instrumental capability to analyze honey according to the Official Methods of Analysis of AOAC International, AOAC Official Method 991.41, which requires an isotope ration mass spectrometer.

    Guidance:
    *** Districts may detain, without physical examination, the specified products from the firms listed in the Red List of this import alert. ***

    Surveillance of imported honey from all countries is indicated.

    FDA Districts requiring C-13/C-12 isotope ratio analysis should contact one of the following laboratories:...

    Arrangements should be made by phone with the laboratory in advance. Approximately two ounces of sample should be shipped within 3 to 10 days.

    The findings of partial substitution of cane or corn sweeteners in honey should be routed to CFSAN, *** Food Adulteration Assessment Branch *** before detention is considered. The presence of cane or corn sweetener in the adulteration of honey can be selectively detected by using the internal standard stable carbon radioisotope ratio method. Reference for the appropriate analytical technique is published in the Official Methods of Analysis of AOAC International, AOAC Official Method 991.41, C-4 Plant Sugars in Honey. Both stable carbon isotope ratios for the honey and protein therein (internal standard method) must be obtained.

    An appropriate alternate method may be used to determine cane or corn sweetener in honey if the method is adequately documented by a validation study to estimate precision, accuracy, and sensitivity for the specific analyses. Equivalency to the official method must be demonstrated in the submission of analytical data."...

    More details are posted here: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cms_ia...alert_108.html

    And more details about "Adulteration of Honey" - States expand efforts to combat 'funny honey' that isn't pure.
    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money...roducers_N.htm
    Last edited by Boris; 02-05-2013 at 07:49 AM.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I am thinking there is such a shortage of honey out there, especially white that very little testing is or will be done.Unless the product is really suspicious looking physically by looks, smell , taste, it will be packed without a test for adulteration..that's the name of the game for the packers , buy it,filter it ,pack it ,sell it ..demand is strong .....make profit
    I wonder what the ratio is for honey sold verses honey tested

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    ... The pollen was removed from the honey. If you remove pollen from honey, what remains? Honey, right? ....
    I never hear about a "honey" in the honeycomb made by bees from floral nectar without pollen. Pollen is an integral part of the honey in the honeycomb as well as many other "ingredients", which made "honey" honey. It is strange to hear from experienced beekeeper that treated honey (filtered, heated etc) is the same honey as before treatment. It just shows attitude - anything sweet may be called "honey"...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Who said it was the same as before? I missed that statement.

    So Sergey, is it your opinion that grocery store sold honey is mislabeled? If so, what would the proper label be?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I dont know Irwin, stocking an adulterated product on the shelf under a brand name, and found, will kill the brand name.
    Unless the packer does not care about branding, to which I agree with you

    Something said about buying brand products, your buying that reputation
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    The odd thing about this issue is that the presence of pollen is hardly evidence of an absence of adulteration. All it really tells us is the floral source of at least some portion of the honey. The idea of analyzing pollen in honey came about to identify the origin of honey that was suspected of being trans-shipped through a third nation to avoid anti-dumping duties.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Who said it was the same as before? I missed that statement...
    Hi Mark. You said that after filtering it is still "honey". I assume that the word "honey" is naming the complex product produced by bees from floral nectar and other ingredients (including pollen). Stating that after alternation (filtration etc) it is still "honey" means to me that you do not distinguish between honey, which is in the honeycomb and in the jar. You just play with word "honey"... it is misleading and distracts people from original subject.

    As for grocery store honey - the whole point of this thread is that it is not exactly honey. So, you missed the whole point. In my opinion, any alternations must be indicated in the label as well as origin of the honey and name/phone/E-mail who actually produce honey (not packager). For instance:

    "Slightly heated raw honey filtered through 200 um filter to preserve fluidity. Made in <name> by <name>, <phone>"
    or
    "Ultrapure honey. in smallest letters:
    For best quality, honey was heated and filtered through golden 0.22 um filter to remove all possible contamination. Sterile, ready to use. Proudly made in the green rural valley <name> in <name> near charcoal factory by <name>, E-mail <....>. "
    Серёжа, Sergey

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    I know that English is not your first language, so, please excuse me for pointing out that "alterNation" is not a word in English. Maybe you meant "alteration".

    I asked what it was, I did not state what it was. Didn't I? Which you have avoided answering. If honey which has had all of the pollen filtered out of it isn't honey, what is it?

    As to your suggestion about the Labeling, yeah, that's practical. Wuldn't you think that Ultrapure Honey woulod be a higher quality honey than any other? Think like a consumer rather thana beekeeper.

    W/ the limited availability of Honey Produced in the United States why would anyone expect Packers to do anything other than what the are doing? Isn't it a simple matter of economics? Supply does not meet demand so other sources will be found and used.

    Sell your own honey and don't get yer panties all in a knot over what others do.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    until consumers actually start giving a darn with their buying habits they will keep getting this sub standard sourced food
    consumers insist on quality and production standards , yet they look the other way as impure food sources come in from countries with no production standards

    Im all for international trade, but on a level playing field,
    consumers dont care about any of that, so they get what they pay for
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I know that English is not your first language, so, please excuse me for pointing out that "alterNation" is not a word in English. Maybe you meant "alteration".
    Well, alternation is English word - look in the dictionary, but indeed I meant "alteration", I apologize for typo.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I asked what it was, I did not state what it was. Didn't I? Which you have avoided answering. If honey which has had all of the pollen filtered out of it isn't honey, what is it?
    A syrup, because pollen is essential component of the honey, which is produced by bees, not packers.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    As to your suggestion about the Labeling, yeah, that's practical. Wuldn't you think that Ultrapure Honey woulod be a higher quality honey than any other? Think like a consumer rather thana beekeeper.
    I know that English is your first language, so, please excuse me for pointing out that "Wuldn't", "woulod" and "thana" are not English words. Maybe you meant "would" and "than?"

    As for labeling - I think consumers need to know the truth - if it is purified by ultrafiltration, it IS ultrapure.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    W/ the limited availability of Honey Produced in the United States why would anyone expect Packers to do anything other than what the are doing?
    Exactly, this is why honey regulation is necessary - to prevent packers to do what they do.
    Last edited by cerezha; 02-05-2013 at 10:50 PM. Reason: grammar
    Серёжа, Sergey

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Pulp is a natural component of orange juice.
    is orange juice without pulp something other than pure orange juice?

    Deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    .....as is beeswax a natural component of honey but no one seems to be suggesting that it's presence is required to prove purity. If I blend a high percentage of corn syrup, or a similar adulterant, with raw honey containing natural pollen is the result a better product than a 100% honey that has had the pollen filtered out? Again, the whole issue of the presence of pollen in honey is that it is a marker proving the source of at least some percentage of that honey with no guarantee of purity. So once again the title of this thread is a misnomer, the absence of pollen proves nothing.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Pulp is a natural component of orange juice.
    is orange juice without pulp something other than pure orange juice?

    Deknow
    Good analogy imo.

    We are all mammals here. One characteristic of mammals of hair. If someone loses all their hair thru chemotherapy are they no longer a mammal?

    I guess I have missed the point of this Thread. What is the point of this Thread? If the point is that some of y'all don't like honey[syrup] being sold as honey, what are you going to do about it? Protest at grocery stores? Write your Representatives? Gripe about it on public forums?

    What about Pollen? Is pollen w/out honey pollen?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    So once again the title of this thread is a misnomer, the absence of pollen proves nothing.
    yes I agree, just to the principle of your point

    It is showing that there is something to hide
    adulteration perhaps?
    If consumers want to buy honey syrup blends, they will buy honey syrup blends. End of the day its up to them. But when they find out, they will turn off honey completely.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Tests Show Most Store Honey Isnít Honey

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    If the point is that some of y'all don't like honey[syrup] being sold as honey,
    Do you ?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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