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VSH Breeding?

68K views 169 replies 34 participants last post by  adamf 
#1 ·
I've noticed the number of threads with VSH in the title, so I thought I would ask this question, as I've been wondering about this for a while.

I've read the postings over on the VSH Breeders website/forum, and I can't tell if (outside the formal USDA program) anyone is actually testing for VSH.

We know that HYG and VSH will not persist in the population unless they are constantly selected for generation after generation.

...so how are breeders (that are not just propagating USDA stock) qualifying their bees as VSH? How are they able to provide VSH behavior without testing? How many generations have these stocks gone since they have been properly evaluated for VSH?

There is certainly less of a consensus about what constitutes a valid VSH test than there is for HYG...but if someone is going to claim that their bees are HYG or VSH, it seems there should be something observable that is being evaluated?

Any thoughts?

deknow
 
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#2 ·
I recall some posts of people using the nitrogen test, but I always wonder how that translates into finding cells with mites as opposed to just dead larvae/pupae. My intuition is people use a qualitative assessment, they see the bees uncapping and removing cells, therefore must be hygenic/vsh?? I think most of the queens I've seen advertised as VSH are all daughter queens of a breeder but saying they're VSH and being such is two different things which is what you're getting at.
 
#3 ·
great question dean. i've been wondering the same thing. even with testing, how can when be sure that a daughter queen and her colony are going to express a trait until they are proven themselves?

for vsh, it seems like the best measure would be a summer mite count, at least that's what i am going to use for selection and deselection.
 
#4 ·
Probably a sensible approach square, but I don't think mite counts translate directly to VsH/hygenics. If you have light pressure for whatever reason you may assume it's your bees. Quantifying seems difficult to me as we cannot observe exactly what's going on, we just know cells are being uncapped etc... but can't really quantify how many mites were in there etc... What's the detection limit? 1 mite, 2 mites, 10 mites... If your bees only uncap 5 mites and greater... that's not very good. I guess a queen rearer needs to chime in and enlighten us. Do they monitor daughter queens for hygenics? Or just assume and sell them.
 
#5 ·
Deknow,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Evaluating even a single colony for the expression of a VSH takes a little time. Evaluating a breeding population is extensive. VSH is not really a stock per se, but a trait to be incorporated into stock, at least that is how John Harbo and Jeff Harris initially approached it. To incorporate VSH into a production stock successfully is a challenge for several reasons. VSH is not a simple characteristic and therefore not very stable in a population. From what I understand, there is also no general consensus as to what percentage of the workers should express VSH to provide an economically viable control level of VSH. 50% has been tossed around, but can be greatly influenced by a large number of environmental conditions.

My assumption is that virtually no one outside of the USDA actually properly screens for VSH expression. I think the USDA provides regular disbursements of semen and perhaps queens to those that are interested in the trait. But, this is like the old days of making a copy of a copy of a copy… How much of the trait is actually retained or exhibited by queens on the market?

The same concern was expressed with the hygienic stock Marla Spivak worked with and that trait was much easier to evaluate and select for. The problem was beekeepers put the catch phrase “hygienic behavior” in their ads, but the queens they were selling expressed very little actual hygienic behavior.

Joe
 
#6 ·
thanks joe, and good reply. i should have added that the mite count won't be the only consideration for selection/deselection. it's not hard to tell which hives are more robust across the board than their cohorts. the mite count will be more to uncover a latent infestation and factor that into management. i'm not sure what else to do except proceed with the working assumption that a robust colony having a low mite count is my best bet for propagating genetics.
 
#9 ·
If you haven't already read it, THIS may help.
Rusty
Hi Rusty,
When I've read through things on the VSH breeders forum (where one would think selection for VSH trait would be discussed), there is almost nothing about the breeders actually using any of these methods.
I saw one post that claimed they were going to post an easy step by step guide, but I haven't seen it.

There is so much hype about VSH (just look at how many active threads have VSH in the title)...yet I think there are very few (if any) that do any kind of proper evaluation to support the VSH claims....and little incentive to educate beekeepers that want to breed their own bees (not just rear from purchased breeder stock) on how VSH actually works, and help them decide if this is a good road to go down for them.

deknow
 
#8 ·
On thing I keep coming back to....

_If_ VSH behavior helps reduce mite loads (Let's assume yes)

and

_If_ VSH behavior will not persist over a number of generations without actually selecting for it (I believe this is what the literature states quite plainly...this would mean a test for VSH as part of the selection process for each generation)

Then what happens when we try to use VSH stock as a basis of a breeding program, or try to incorporate the trait into a population?

1. At first it seems successful, as the first and second generations benefit from the VSH traits.

2. As the generations unfold, actual VSH becomes less and less pronounced/common.

3. One of the following 3 things will happen:

A. The bees become susceptible to the mites as VSH dissipates
B. The bees that are selected for survival/production/etc have those traits as a byproduct of VSH....that the survivors are assumed to be VSH because they are surviving
C. As VSH dissipates, other mite resistant traits become more pronounced

In cases A and C, a few generations down the line, the VSH traits are not maintained....was it useful to introduce VSH in the first place? What was gained?

Case B seems to be what people think will happen when they buy some VSH stock to integrate into their own (or to start their own program)...but this assumption doesn't seem to be based on anything real.

IMHO, "3 letter queens" are not a productive way to go...even if you do get stock that actually is VSH....and for the purpose of this statement, "JSL" doesn't count as 3 letters :)

deknow
 
#10 ·
Deknow,

This is where I think there is a disconnect. I have looked at and worked with bees that truly expressed measurable levels of VSH behavior. I started with the original lines from Harbo and Harris and tested lines from following years released by the USDA. Each time, yes the VSH lines did express lower Varroa levels, BUT in looking at the broader picture, I had concerns about production and survivability issues. I simply could not get good survivability and production out of lines that expressed high levels of VSH. In my opinion, the expression of VSH comes at a very high energetic cost to the colony, which is probably why it is expressed at such a low level in unselected populations.

Joe
 
#12 ·
There is so much hype about VSH (just look at how many active threads have VSH in the title)...yet I think there are very few (if any) that do any kind of proper evaluation to support the VSH claims....and little incentive to educate beekeepers that want to breed their own bees (not just rear from purchased breeder stock) on how VSH actually works, and help them decide if this is a good road to go down for them.
But if I may play devil's advocate here, how is this any different than all the queens that are hyped as being "survivor bees"? Anybody can call anything whatever they want. There are very few "tests" for any of it. Mostly it boils down to what is happening in a given box--with no guarantee that just because it IS working in this box, it is going to work in somebody else's box. At least with the VSH queens, one CAN go back to USDA and hope to get a reasonable facsimile of what they expect to get. But with Joe Blow's queens, who knows what you are getting, since there are no guarantees that because they work for him, they'll work for you. I don't mean Joe Blow is misrepresenting his bees, only that the bees themselves work or don't work based on where they are as much as how they are bred or handled.

I think the bees are ALL locally successful or not, no matter how they are bred or by whom, based solely on their ability to survive in THIS place as opposed to that one. Every time you buy a queen, you are getting a-pig-in-a-poke. The VSH/Pol-line are no different in that regard.

At lease that is what I am taking away from all this. Remember now, I am small potatoes and productivity does not affect my bottom line. For me they are just an interesting hobby. One that is starting to make me a little crazy, but then I suppose you have to be a little crazy to get so wrapped up in a bunch of bugs in a box!

Bottom line for me is that I can spend my money on a package/nuc/queen that is supposed to be survivor or one that is supposed to be hygienic. I see it as a total gamble either way.

Rusty
 
#13 ·
that's the way i see it too rusty. and that's the main reason i want to try my hand at raising my own queens. i had pretty good luck making splits from my best colonies these past two years. i hope to end up with good hearty feral mutts that will be of use to me and maybe others in my area.
 
#14 ·
Yep. That's the direction I am heading as well. I will start with the best I can find and hope to use them to develop some gals who do well right here. LOL I have been driving myself a bit batty over this, but now that I've had some time to cogitate a bit, that is the direction I am heading, too.

And I really like that phrase "good hearty feral mutts"! That sums it up perfectly.

:D

Rusty
 
#149 ·
that is what i am doing i am 63 years old and have had bees since i was 13 teen or 14teen in the past i have got bees from all over the states- texas hawi george. now i just have those good hearty feral mutts, and they are the best bees i have ever had. i keep telling myself just breed what you got danny
 
#16 ·
Actually, no. I rarely see ANY bees, which is how I got started on bees again. I have a garden and a small orchard and in the 7 years I've been here, I've only had one season where I saw any bees at all, and then never again after that season 2 years ago. Which seemed sad to me, so next thing I knew there I was reading the old books and hunting online and--oops, now I'm building boxes again!

:D

Rusty
 
#17 ·
I was going to say the same thing Rusty and Square. Bring in genetics you like, select for colonies that do well. I think most of the success comes in how good people are at selecting 'healthy' and 'strong' colonies and knowing a dog when they see one. I think what we're leading to is what to do after those queens get replaced a couple times and how often should new genetics be brought in or if it's even necessary at all. Just keep raising your own queens from what you have and don't look back.
 
#18 ·
interesting. i'm pretty sure i have some around here. the way i can tell is that i have had a couple of cases of robbing, and the robbing bees were coming and going from the woods and i'm pretty sure there are no kept bees nearby in that direction.

also, i have put wet supers out to get cleaned up, and these wild bees have shown up then. their color and markings a little different than the ones in my yard.

there were beekeepers around me many years ago that managed quite a few hives. i'm guessing that their old swarms are now my feral bees. plus, i have let several swarms fly these past three seasons, in hopes that they might get established in the woods.

the hope is that if they are making it in the wild on their own, that they might have decent survivor genetics, and their drones will be around come mating season.

the other thing is that the bees i have purchased were bred from cut outs from the woods on the next ridge over from me. it has been twelve years since that breeder started these, and they have never been treated.

:)
 
#19 ·
There is so much hype about VSH (just look at how many active threads have VSH in the title)...yet I think there are very few (if any) that do any kind of proper evaluation to support the VSH claims....and little incentive to educate beekeepers that want to breed their own bees (not just rear from purchased breeder stock) on how VSH actually works, and help them decide if this is a good road to go down for them.
I think grooming behavior might be as important [maybe more important] than VSH. I try to observe that in my hives and I find that the lowest mite counts are coming from those hives that express this. I also try to use 1st generation VSH queens. This year I'm going to try some queens which seem to express strong grooming behavior. They are from survivor queens which have not been treated for a few years.
 
#21 ·
Lots of good comments here. I've dabbled with the VSH bee for the past two years, starting with breeder queens from Glenn in 2011 and then more in 2012. I've had 3 pure VSH and 2 Pol-line II queens. I used these queens to make lots of queens, mostly for myself, but with limited local distribution. I do not rigorously test for "VSH traits" in daughters. However, I do assess these queens as one would for any other type of queen. My assessments are pretty simple, and suited to my objectives of: high honey yield, mite resistance, and gentleness. Overall, my luck with the pure VSH was very poor. Honestly, I simply couldn't keep them from dwindling away, which was very disappointing and costly, even F1 daughters of pure VSH were poor - maybe this was simply bad luck. However, I've tried F1 daughters from other breeders with similar results. I know others have had success with VSH and I'd like to hear more about that.

The Pol-Line bees were completely the opposite - fantastic bees! Without a doubt the best bees I've ever used - and I've tried a LOT of different breeds and breeders. Again, my evaluations are simple: honey, mites, and gentleness. Honey and gentleness are simple to assess, with the results of the Pol-Line being much better than other bees I've had and better than others in my local area. For mites I routinely monitor using sugar rolls, sticky boards, drone uncapping, and visual evidence. The Pol-Line (breeders and F1 daughters) have consistently shown very low mite counts. How do these traits hold up without additional infusion of pure genetics, well that's a continuing story for which I'll have more data this season.

I realize that this doesn't address the main point of the thread, but a point to consider here is if you buy F1 daughters and they (and any potential daughters) last 2 or 3 seasons, wouldn't that represent good value? Sure VSH traits may not be lasting, but bees that survive and produce are certainly worthy of integrating into a breeding program.
 
#22 ·
hmmm, grooming (and autogrooming) is something i see on the landing boards fairly often. i thought is was fighting at first but it was definitely grooming instead. i think it may be worth journaling that observation...... :)
 
#23 ·
Astro, I really wanted to get one of the pol line queens but was planning on next year (which is now, 2013), guess I should've just pulled the trigger in 2012. I would agree with you, if you get 2-3 years out of the queen I think you've done well. Your mite population should've been kept down and if they were productive, worth the cost.
 
#24 ·
In the past, Tom Glenn obtained breeding material from the USDA program in Baton Rouge, and he maintained crosses of VSH without having to select for the VSH behavior. He sold the breeders, and many folks simply outcrossed daughters of those queens to produce VSH x unselected crosses -- and these colonies delivered about half of the resistance of the purebred parent line. However, the level of resistance afforded measurable slowing of mite population growth, and the hybrid colonies did not exhibit some of the problems that were sometimes seen in the purebred lines (small colony size; poor brood quality, etc.).

It is difficult to directly select for the VSH behavior; however, beginning this year, I will establish a closed population breeding program at Mississippi State University that will try to produce an Italian-like stock with high expression of the VSH trait. This effort is in response to the retirement of Tom and Suki Glenn. I will select parents based on the ability to remove mite-infested brood from a comb (one of the USDA standard techniques), but we will also select for high honey production, low defense behavior, and maintenance of a good brood quality throughout the entire year. This last characteristic is important to help offset the tendency toward inbreeding. So, I don't know if others are measuirng VSH-related variables (e.g. percentage of infertile mites), but we intend to measure VSH behavior directly. The goal is to produce a VSH stock of bees that expresses VSH behavior at a level higher than currently available in the hybrid VSH colonies AND one that expresses the other desirable characteristics of Italian bees at reliable and predictable levels year after year. It will take years to produce a stable product, but it seems important to try and preserve the VSH trait in a stock rather than in selected lines (which are difficult to maitain, and they are inherently narrow in genetic base).
 
#91 ·
Sorry, my mistake....apologies to Jeff and John.

The statement (not assessment) I made about the Glenn operation was based on what I think Jeff stated earlier in this thread. If this is incorrect (if Glenn does test and select for VSH), I would appreciate someone correcting me. I am trying hard to get the facts straight.

In the past, Tom Glenn obtained breeding material from the USDA program in Baton Rouge, and he maintained crosses of VSH without having to select for the VSH behavior.
deknow
 
#28 ·
Hello Joe,

I do think that VSH can be made more useful, but the question of stability is interesting. I see it as stable as any other selected trait -- when selection is released, the trait will likely equilibrate to some level significantly lower than what is selected. For example, if any breeder stopped selection pressure on a closed population, it would slowly divert to something less than desired (most likely). This is the problem with bee breeding -- or maybe animal breeding in general -- it takes a sustained effort. There are many examples -- yourself, Sue Cobey, and many of the California queen breeders. All have stocks of bees with desired characteristics -- low defense behavior being an obvious characteristic of some stocks. As soon as the selection pressure is eased, genes will gradually drift from the selected level. So, breeding is certainly a long term commitment.

However, I do believe that VSH can be made higher than is found in hybrid colonies and lower than parental lines, and the resulting colonies will be nice and well liked bees. I am not going out on a limb here; Garrett Doods of the USDA Honey Bee Breeding Lab tinkered with developing a closed population breeding VSH-Italian stock for a few seasons. He was producing some nice bees when the effort was dropped for more pressing issues. He modeled the breeding after Sue Cobey's New World Carniolan program (but on a much smaller scale). His results encouraged my current effort.

As a sideline, Garrett was shifted to producing VSH bees (with his boss Dr. Bob Danka) to produce the Pol-Line bees -- which are an Italian based VSH line that performs l in migratory pollination. My breeding will focus on stationary apiaries. So, we will likely have similar stocks, but my selection methods will be patterned more after what Sue has done for many, many years.
 
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