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Thread: VSH Breeding?

  1. #121
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Precisely, it's not easy. Where Frazz and I live, bees at 50% VSH will perixh if not treated, kinda wondering why it works so well for some who posted here.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #122
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    ....has anyone "here" determined that they have bees that are 50% VSH?

    I agree that the statement by Harbo doesn't seem to fit reality.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  3. #123
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Oldtimer, are you saying your VSH X VSH breeders daughters are not "sensitive" enough yet to leave untreated??

  4. #124
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    dean, have you been or are you considering measuring for mite resistance? (beyond survival that is)

    i haven't been so far, but i can see the merit in it in regards to selecting and deselecting.

    i'm not sure i'll have the time to uncap brood cells and measure mite fertility. i'll probably have to rely on overall observation and mite counts for now.

    maybe after retirement or if i could get a grant........
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #125
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandy View Post
    Oldtimer, are you saying your VSH X VSH breeders daughters are not "sensitive" enough yet to leave untreated??
    We don't have 100% VSH bees, the best breeders are around 80%. If their daughters are open mated with all comers, yes, without treatment sooner or later they will perish.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #126
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I agree that the statement by Harbo doesn't seem to fit reality.

    deknow
    Which statement by Harbo?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #127
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Post #113

  8. #128
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    Molalla, Oregon, USA
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    What measurable traits = the bee is 100 vsh?
    % of infertile mites? What % = 100%vsh
    Mite infested brood removal %? What % is needed to be %?
    The breeder says the line is vsh therefore it is now 100% vsh?
    If the breeder says my stock expresses qualities consistent with vsh that is not sexy for marketing but it is honest.

  9. #129
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    Really? it's that simple ? and no treatments needed ever?
    If colonys headed by VSH queens that are open mated produce bees that require no chemical control for varroa then wouldn't all beekeepers in America have these queens heading their colonies?

  10. #130
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I am not sure I see what has been so easy about breeding for VSH much less the discovery of the traits or the recognition that they are genetic. What exactly are you considering easy.
    If someone is claiming that you can have a colony headed by an open mated VSH queen and not have to chemically control varroa then I would have thought it would now be easy for beekeepers to purchase those queens or queen cells install them in their hives and never have to treat for varroa.

    I wasn't saying the process of getting to that stage was easy but now that the break through has been made we can all breathe a sigh of relief... or not

  11. #131
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Frazz you have a warped sense of humor LOL!

    PTMerrill, as I understand it, the method used in my country to put a number on VSH, is to uncap 400 cells and look for mite families. There will either be normal mite families, or interupted mite families / breeding attempts. The interupted ones are evidenced by a male egg or larvae plus mite feaceal material in the cell, but no mother mite or sisters. This is taken to be evidence that the bees uncapped the cell and let the foundress mite out before she could lay female eggs, and then re-capped the cell. If 20% of all cells with mites or evidence of mites are an interupted breeding attempt, the bee is classed as 20% VSH.

    All this is basically just what I've been told. I have no personal experience with these bees worthy of mention.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #132
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    If colonys headed by VSH queens that are open mated produce bees that require no chemical control for varroa then wouldn't all beekeepers in America have these queens heading their colonies?
    No, In fact very few would. I don't think the majority of beekeepers purchase queens at all. Of those that do many would be skeptical and not choose them. Of the remainder that are not skeptical only a percentage would care enough about VSH over other traits they desire such as honey production or pollination to make a buying decision for VSH. It is like saying that becasue the majority of people think that chocolate is one of the best candies around that only chocolate is sold. People do not always choose the best. people do not always even want the best.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  13. #133
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by frazzledfozzle View Post
    If someone is claiming that you can have a colony headed by an open mated VSH queen and not have to chemically control varroa then I would have thought it would now be easy for beekeepers to purchase those queens or queen cells install them in their hives and never have to treat for varroa.

    I wasn't saying the process of getting to that stage was easy but now that the break through has been made we can all breathe a sigh of relief... or not
    I am not sure I se anyone in this conversation saying that the answer has been found. I see people saying that they are working toward one possible answer. I say that just to be clear.

    Now hypothetically once that answer is found. Will it be as simple as using that answer? Yes it will.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I am not sure I se anyone in this conversation saying that the answer has been found.


    Quote Originally Posted by JBJ View Post
    from Harbo's web site:

    This is great news for queen producers. They can rear VSH queens, mate them to any drones, and those queens will produce colonies that require no chemical control for varroa.
    ..
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #135
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Oldtimer, I suppose you can read that as a statement of current fact or one of future possibility. I interpret it as that latter given additional knowledge I have.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Hmm sounds very secret squirrel!

    But hey my post was just saying there are people who believe they have the answer.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #137
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Oldtimer, I suppose you can read that as a statement of current fact or one of future possibility. I interpret it as that latter given additional knowledge I have.
    ...what additional knowledge is that? Taking the quote provided in its original context, it is nothing about future posibilities...these are claims by a breeder who ends the page in question with:
    http://www.harbobeeco.com/vsh/
    Problem Solved Through Breeding
    A top priority of Harbo Bee Company was to solve the problem of poor brood production. This was not a common inbreeding condition but probably the result of poor brood care by worker bees and/or a susceptibility to European foulbrood. Since not all VSH colonies expressed this problem, we had enough variability to correct this situation with selective breeding. We now have full expression of the VSH trait in colonies that are also good brood and honey producers.
    Note the past tense references to the problems ("was", "had")...but the problems are now solved, "We now have full expression of the VSH trait in colonies that are also good brood and honey producers".

    With "full expression" achieved, it seems that the 50% VSH queens are only one graft away for any beekeeper that can obtain a VSH breeder queen. This is essentially marketing copy for the Harbo VSH queens...and I think it is far from demonstrated that grafting from one of his queens is all that needs to be done in order to eliminate mite treatments. At best, it is an overstated claim.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  18. #138
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    I've used a great deal of VSH F1 queens in my colonies with no treatments. I've not had any crash from mites to my knowledge. I don't graft exclusively from VSH breeders, I don't know that I would recommend that. My best queens were open mated F1's in drone yards headed by a nice diversity of colonies that thrive with no treatments. I think it would be safe for a portion of those colonies to be F1's from the previous years breeders. Maybe it's the way I manage, maybe it's my environmental conditions. Who knows. I do have mites, I just don't have colonies crashing from them.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Whitetail how many hives so you have and how long have they been without treatment?
    Do you split heavily during the season or leave as is?

  20. #140
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    Default Re: VSH Breeding?

    Whitetail...I'm trying to unravel your post...

    1. Are the VSH breeders you are getting "pure" or "100% expressing" VSH breeders?
    2. You are grafting some from the VSH breeders, and grafting from some stock of unknown VSH expression.
    3. Your best queens were open mated F1's (from the VSH queens or from all the queens you graft from?)
    4. Your drone source is weighted towards F1's from your previous years efforts.

    Even with some clarification on 1 above, it is hard to make a guess as to what level of VSH expression the bees posses by the time they are heading your production colonies....with VSH in the drone pool, it could be high. I don't think we know enough to know if your account supports Harbo's claims.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

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