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VSH Breeding?

68K views 169 replies 34 participants last post by  adamf 
#1 ·
I've noticed the number of threads with VSH in the title, so I thought I would ask this question, as I've been wondering about this for a while.

I've read the postings over on the VSH Breeders website/forum, and I can't tell if (outside the formal USDA program) anyone is actually testing for VSH.

We know that HYG and VSH will not persist in the population unless they are constantly selected for generation after generation.

...so how are breeders (that are not just propagating USDA stock) qualifying their bees as VSH? How are they able to provide VSH behavior without testing? How many generations have these stocks gone since they have been properly evaluated for VSH?

There is certainly less of a consensus about what constitutes a valid VSH test than there is for HYG...but if someone is going to claim that their bees are HYG or VSH, it seems there should be something observable that is being evaluated?

Any thoughts?

deknow
 
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#124 ·
dean, have you been or are you considering measuring for mite resistance? (beyond survival that is)

i haven't been so far, but i can see the merit in it in regards to selecting and deselecting.

i'm not sure i'll have the time to uncap brood cells and measure mite fertility. i'll probably have to rely on overall observation and mite counts for now.

maybe after retirement or if i could get a grant........ :)
 
#128 ·
What measurable traits = the bee is 100 vsh?
% of infertile mites? What % = 100%vsh
Mite infested brood removal %? What % is needed to be %?
The breeder says the line is vsh therefore it is now 100% vsh?
If the breeder says my stock expresses qualities consistent with vsh that is not sexy for marketing but it is honest.
 
#131 ·
Frazz you have a warped sense of humor LOL! ;)

PTMerrill, as I understand it, the method used in my country to put a number on VSH, is to uncap 400 cells and look for mite families. There will either be normal mite families, or interupted mite families / breeding attempts. The interupted ones are evidenced by a male egg or larvae plus mite feaceal material in the cell, but no mother mite or sisters. This is taken to be evidence that the bees uncapped the cell and let the foundress mite out before she could lay female eggs, and then re-capped the cell. If 20% of all cells with mites or evidence of mites are an interupted breeding attempt, the bee is classed as 20% VSH.

All this is basically just what I've been told. I have no personal experience with these bees worthy of mention.
 
#137 ·
...what additional knowledge is that? Taking the quote provided in its original context, it is nothing about future posibilities...these are claims by a breeder who ends the page in question with:
http://www.harbobeeco.com/vsh/
Problem Solved Through Breeding
A top priority of Harbo Bee Company was to solve the problem of poor brood production. This was not a common inbreeding condition but probably the result of poor brood care by worker bees and/or a susceptibility to European foulbrood. Since not all VSH colonies expressed this problem, we had enough variability to correct this situation with selective breeding. We now have full expression of the VSH trait in colonies that are also good brood and honey producers.
Note the past tense references to the problems ("was", "had")...but the problems are now solved, "We now have full expression of the VSH trait in colonies that are also good brood and honey producers".

With "full expression" achieved, it seems that the 50% VSH queens are only one graft away for any beekeeper that can obtain a VSH breeder queen. This is essentially marketing copy for the Harbo VSH queens...and I think it is far from demonstrated that grafting from one of his queens is all that needs to be done in order to eliminate mite treatments. At best, it is an overstated claim.

deknow
 
#138 ·
I've used a great deal of VSH F1 queens in my colonies with no treatments. I've not had any crash from mites to my knowledge. I don't graft exclusively from VSH breeders, I don't know that I would recommend that. My best queens were open mated F1's in drone yards headed by a nice diversity of colonies that thrive with no treatments. I think it would be safe for a portion of those colonies to be F1's from the previous years breeders. Maybe it's the way I manage, maybe it's my environmental conditions. Who knows. I do have mites, I just don't have colonies crashing from them.
 
#140 ·
Whitetail...I'm trying to unravel your post...

1. Are the VSH breeders you are getting "pure" or "100% expressing" VSH breeders?
2. You are grafting some from the VSH breeders, and grafting from some stock of unknown VSH expression.
3. Your best queens were open mated F1's (from the VSH queens or from all the queens you graft from?)
4. Your drone source is weighted towards F1's from your previous years efforts.

Even with some clarification on 1 above, it is hard to make a guess as to what level of VSH expression the bees posses by the time they are heading your production colonies....with VSH in the drone pool, it could be high. I don't think we know enough to know if your account supports Harbo's claims.

deknow
 
#141 ·
Fozz, I run a little over 100 colonies. This will be my fourth season treatment free, although I never treated on a consistent basis prior.
Deknow, I'm not really concerned with my % of VSH expression. I only mentioned the trait has been added to my genetics in varying %'s. I do raise some of my queens from pure II'd VSH and Hygienic breeders.
 
#142 ·
Fozz, I do divide my non impressive colonies in the Spring to stock mating nucs. In the fall I often make two frame divides with new queens while the nectar flow is on.(feed them to four to six frames for winter) I've had good luck wintering those, and turning them into production colonies the following Spring.
 
#143 ·
whitetail, do you have an infestation rate high enough in the late summer/early fall that would cause you to bust the colony up for your late season two frame divides, even though that colony performed well production wise and does not show any outward sign of varroasis?
 
#144 ·
Squarepeg, No, I don't break them all down into two framers. I only take a two frame split out of each double deep hive I choose. I leave the old queen in the double if she's performing well. The wintered nucs with new fall queens are explosive in the Spring. I use them for expansion. I occasionally see some with a high varroa load, but if I see no viral issues, and they appear healthy by all other measures, I let them ride. The mite levels naturally drop when they reduce, or stop brood rearing.
 
#148 ·
hey whitetail thanks for your replys. I think you understand what is trying to be done with the VSH bees. I loose hives each year but far less then i use too. if we continue to select from VSH stock and continue to raise from these we will continue to improve these. They are not a silver bullet but we are headed in the right direction
 
#153 ·
Karla, It is always easy for those that don't require they actually accomplish anything. I appreciate the work and have a little better than average insight as to what effort it takes. And yes I agree it is a tiny amount being applied.
 
#154 ·
Interesting..
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64133000/PDFFiles/490-Danka--Expression of varroa.pdf
A practical interpretation of these data for beekeepers
is that the average expression of hygiene in commercial
VSH production queens is good. However,
there is substantial variability of hygiene expressed
both between commercial sources and within colonies
from queens supplied by each source. This variability
means that beekeepers should be vigilant in monitoring
mite levels so that additional mite control activities
can be undertaken if needed. Breeders of VSH should
recognize that mite resistance in production queens
probably could be improved if colonies with VSH
drones were supplied when mating VSH production
queens. Additionally, simpler techniques to determine
the level of VSH in colonies would be a valuable tool
to assist with selection and improvement.
 
#155 ·
Cost/Benefit is always worth looking at...be it a genetic trait (VSH), a class (Penn State Bee School), a treatment (Fumidil), or research (SARE or otherwise).

I think some people just don't believe that this money should be available at all or used in this way.
I'm all for spending money on research....but the cost/benefit should always be subject to scrutiny if public money is used. Especially when new ground is not being covered (queen introduction, mite counting, queen rearing, and nuc colonies are well understood subjects commonly used by beekeepers of all scales, not new untested ideas), one should consider what one would pay someone to do the work.

and gee you haven't even explored the world of what crop specialty money is being used for in beekeeping yet
I read a lot of research regarding bees and beekeeping. Some of it is very good, some of it is very bad. The funding source, the scale, and reputation of the one doing the work does not seem to correlate with the quality of the work, the cost/benefit, or the overall benefit.


deknow
 
#157 ·
If you read a bit more of the study, you will see that even the Glenn queens didn't display the same "mite infertility" as the USDA lines. I think this paper pretty much says that you don't know what you are getting, unless you get it directly from the USDA.

deknow
 
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