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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,097

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Mann lake sells 50 bags of brewer’s yeast, cheaper than pollen sub.

    I priced soy isolate found it is very expensive. Thought about adding it to a commercial sub.

    What commercial subs have you tried, which ones were not being consumed fast enough

    Suggestions?
    More water or oil so that it does not dry out.
    A few drops of wintergreen EO might keep the beetles out, I hear they don’t like it. It might keep the bees off it too. Might also try Thyme EO bees will eat that but I don’t know about the beetles.

    You may have read these already, there is some good info on subs.

    https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054

    http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documen...Article10.html

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    707

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    If you cant find a local source for brewers yeast then Mann lake isnt too bad because they have free shipping. I think if you get a tote its like 83 cents/lb. I do know that there is a company that makes brewers yeast in N Carolina and brewtech is in Texas.

    I get my yeast from Aventine in Decatur IL and Toasted Soy flour from HoneySoy in MN.
    Soy isolate 63% protein(soycomil R) could be purchased from ADM. I think it was 1.20 this year.They have other soy isolates that are even higher in protein.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,920

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Those are interesting links.

    I'm not going to name products I tried. I may no have used them correctly and don't have the experience or number of hives to give a fair assessment.

    It was suggested to me that the addition of soy flour attracted and promoted beetle grow more than the other ingredients and that a brewers yeast base with whole dried egg was the route to take when SHB where a concern. Faster consumption is a goal so high % of sugars etc made sense. I started with a basic recipe along these lines and say huge improvements over tinkering with commercial sub. It was cheaper and worked better. I may be on the wrong path or not using or assessing products ingredients correctly.

    I maybe as close to a good value product as reasonably possible with my knowledge,experience and resources as I'm going to get. I'd just buy it I there was a product I could use effectively,wasn't hard to get and offered a good value.

    Maybe I should just call around and see if I can get a couple bags of this milled extra fine.

    http://www.empyreal75.com/nutri_profile.php

    It's almost perfect!
    A little tweaking and a bunch of sugar Done!
    Does anyone know what I should add to balance this out for bees??
    Anyone?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,920

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Rak,
    Thanks for the info.
    Tote? I mix it 1/2 50# bag at a time in a wheelbarrow with a hoe.
    I only use 75# of yeast last spring. Hopefully I can feed most stronger singles close to 3# at a time without issue. It's not pretty if they don't clean it up and the SHB get in it.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    707

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    I have no experiences with beetles but I bet its not easy to feed sub. I checked on the doubles and there is 6-9 frames of capped brood on the few pallets I went through so an av of 7 frames of capped brood is fair... Hives w/o pollen sub got some sub today. Most of those are 3-4 frames of capped brood. Some are barley brooding.

    The hive in the pic is nothing to brag about but there is definitely a brood increase.

    040_zps65a28477.jpg

    041_zps8e5f3d22.jpg

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,920

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    I have no experiences with beetles but I bet its not easy to feed sub. I checked on the doubles and there is 6-9 frames of capped brood on the few pallets I went through so an av of 7 frames of capped brood is fair... Hives w/o pollen sub got some sub today. Most of those are 3-4 frames of capped brood. Some are barley brooding.

    The hive in the pic is nothing to brag about but there is definitely a brood increase.

    040_zps65a28477.jpg

    041_zps8e5f3d22.jpg
    Thanks for Sharing. Hive and equipment looks nice. We couldn't be further apart and I don't normally keep singles but that "nothing to brag about" hive would be just about right to me going into our "winter".
    I maybe overly concerned about SHB. I know many people with more experience that don't seem to worry about them. It's no fun if the SHB get a jump on you. It wouldn't be so tough if I didn't always keep Nucs, pull queens to sell, feed sub etc.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    719

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Kitten Kibbles are about 32% protein, 9% fat and can be had for about 0.40/lb in bulk. Has anyone tried powdered kitten kibbles at the backyard/hobby level?

    High protein/low cost winner seems to be feather meal, has anyone tried a formulation to 30% protein based on feather meal -- one could cut the feathers with one of the many livestock meals (distiller's lees) in the 20% protein range.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    I have the worst luck; finally taught my horse to eat sawdust and he died.

    Old joke but you may be getting close. Bees use fermented pollen, i'm not sure it is the same method of consumption with sub; no fermentation time. My homemade is very course compared to ultra bee.
    Do not know how other commercial subs compare. A bee needs it very finely ground and/or fermented feed.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Bolton, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    276

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Kitten Kibbles are about 32% protein, 9% fat and can be had for about 0.40/lb in bulk. Has anyone tried powdered kitten kibbles at the backyard/hobby level?

    High protein/low cost winner seems to be feather meal, has anyone tried a formulation to 30% protein based on feather meal -- one could cut the feathers with one of the many livestock meals (distiller's lees) in the 20% protein range.
    Doesn't cat food have meat protein in it?? I'm not going to try it!!! Also I have the feeling Cat food is high on Ash.

    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
    Posts
    719

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    No meat protein, you've never watched a bee eat a larvae then? You do know they are cannibals, don't you?

    Yup, I know some of this has an ick factor (and there might be issues with constituents), but pollen is relatively indigestible. It has a really hard coat, it after all is recoverable from lake beds after thousands of years.

    Amino acids are amino acids. Not much different from one source to another, but limiting factor can be an incomplete suite (why soy works better than Corn gluten).

  11. #31
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    707

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Kitten Kibbles are about 32% protein, 9% fat and can be had for about 0.40/lb in bulk. Has anyone tried powdered kitten kibbles at the backyard/hobby level?

    High protein/low cost winner seems to be feather meal, has anyone tried a formulation to 30% protein based on feather meal -- one could cut the feathers with one of the many livestock meals (distiller's lees) in the 20% protein range.

    The protein in those is too low for sub making. 40-50% of sub needs to be sucrose so if you have a 30% protein and you add sugar you drop down to 15% protein. Then when you add the syrup you drop down to 8-9% protein.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Bolton, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    276

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    No meat protein, you've never watched a bee eat a larvae then? You do know they are cannibals, don't you?

    Nope never seen it myself yet. And nope didn't know Honey bees were meat eating Cannibals either. I knew Wasps and Hornets eat meat, but didn't know Honey Bees eat meat.

    I'll have to go look that one up!

    Glen
    You Tube bee Channel Zone 5A
    http://www.youtube.com/user/GlenGH

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,097

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Interesting study

    http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-...Haydak%202.pdf
    Tested different food ingredients

    look at table 2, if I read it right
    The pollen sub with soy flour, 20% skim milk powder , oil and 10% egg yolk was superior to even bee bread in bee mortality and brood count.

    Table 3 looks like yeast and skim milk along with soy flour and dry skim milk out performed bee bread in brood while rearing a queen but bee bread slightly better mortality.

    Based on this study I would look at soy flour, yeast, dry skim milk and dry egg yolks for ingredients in pollen subs.

    I would also look at soy isolate for both protein and amino acids

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