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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Pollen Sub Improvement

    Just a very short time ago I began to experiment with Feeding Pollen Sub.
    I've learned a lot and have seen the potential for this to be a great tool.

    I've mixed a few smaller batches, experimented and have a recipe I'm happy enough with to mix a large batch and feed for the remainder of the time I add sub. I'll offer some on here once I understand where I'm at and if I have extra.

    The basic recipe is
    Brewers yeast #10
    Egg #5
    Oils. 1 pt
    Corn syrup 1 qt
    Sugar #25
    Isolate 1#
    Acids
    Vitamins
    Attractants E.O's
    Water
    Etc.

    The recipe is a combination of common recipes found on the Internet and speaking with local beekeepers.
    I cut the amounts down to give a general idea, the oil is a couple ounces more etc. Acid is lemon juice, vitamin C and citric acid I'm still waffling on lemon and the consitancy of ph it provides.

    It's high in sugar and has no soy flour to contribute to my goal of having it consumed quickly and discourage SHB.

    I'd like to continue to improve so here are some of the areas I think I need to address first

    Sterols,Lipids,cholesterol - what oils or fats I'm using a combination now. As you can see I'm leaning toward higher fat content to both ensure requirements are met as well as keeping product usable and attractive.

    Vitamins- Here in Florida my bees aren't stressed as others my be. They often have access to forage.
    I'm as concerned with giving them the wrong vitamin or too much of I'm the right ones. That said I need a good... No make that great source of vitamin A & K. I think I've got one but I'm not sure about accessibility of the nutrient so it shall remain nameless. Thoughts?

    Isolate proteins, what offers the balance to brewers yeast, eggs with attention to value?

    Minerals, I'm erroring on the side of too little for my environment I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the biology and at higher amounts may do harm.

    This study made me think that it's not about developing a Pollen Sub but maybe about developing a product that bees can easily utilize to turn into bee bread. I know it's not a huge distinction but it maybe an important one

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0032962

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Warrior, Alabama
    Posts
    1,056

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Leave out the egg!
    Samonella!
    Old Guy in Alabama

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    924

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    I have found by adding dehydrated milk to Megs bee the bee like it better.

    I also have used rice bran and baker’s yeast in the mix.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    It was implied that I would use safe ingredients.

    Dairy? Maybe Casein but its $$

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    697

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Brewers yeast, Soy, and Inedible egg work well. Calculate the fat content of your sub...

    I have tried dry whole milk but it has only 26% protein and has 28% fat...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    St. Joseph County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    This study made me think that it's not about developing a Pollen Sub but maybe about developing a product that bees can easily utilize to turn into bee bread. I know it's not a huge distinction but it maybe an important one
    sounds to me like a huge distinction - thanks for the perspective and the article

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    Brewers yeast, Soy, and Inedible egg work well. Calculate the fat content of your sub...

    I have tried dry whole milk but it has only 26% protein and has 28% fat...
    Thanks
    Do you have a recommended target for fat % ? Why?
    Does anyone have a good link to a feed calculator that works well?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by arrowwood View Post
    sounds to me like a huge distinction - thanks for the perspective and the article
    It's a worthwhile read. Lots of info almost too much .

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    I'm just waiting on one item and I'll go ahead and mix up a batch.

    I can't say I've got my heart set on trying any separate batches.

    I did find mention of "back in he day" beekeepers adding Rum and or Tang powdered drink mix.
    I guess the modern equivalent would be Patron and Gatorade ?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Peace River, AB Canada
    Posts
    454

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    I think Tang was used for the vit. C

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    697

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbeck View Post
    Thanks
    Do you have a recommended target for fat % ? Why?
    I mix mine with
    6% fat content
    20% protein


    Good pollen will have average of 20% protein and somewhere with at least 5% fat. You will also want to add some some citric acid crystals.

    Bees don't eat pollen but bee bread. That the whole point of "patties". I have tasted bee bread and my own pollen sub...both taste good.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Amador County, Calif
    Posts
    3,121

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    Good pollen will have average of 20% protein
    RAK, some good points you made, good pollen will avg 26%. Steady she go's men.
    NUTRA-BEE feed supplements

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Thanks for the feed back. It's funny I kind of like the taste of sub as well

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    I've been feeding and observing.
    Consistency is something I still need to get perfect.

    The ROI on this project is good. The hives that have had pollen sub have a lot more brood than those that haven't. It's close to three frames more brood on the hives that have been fed 4-5 #.
    No issue with SHB but they aren't real bad yet,time will tell.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    I'm still trying to improve my recipe.
    It is getting close to the time of year here where I think pollen sub has the potential to give the greatest ROI.

    Anyone care to answer some ?

    In your area what time of the year gives you the greatest efficiency from Pollen Sub?

    How do you measure the value?
    x pounds of sub consumed = y frames of brood?

    How long at what frequency and how many pounds do you feed?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    697

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbeck View Post
    How do you measure the value?
    We put 7-10 lbs late August but this year we started feeding sept. My way of measurement: When the lids go off in Jan the hives are FILLED with bees.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Rak,
    Is that 7-10# one shot or 3-5# twice?
    I'm guessing that you run double deeps?
    How many additional frames of brood will that give you over an equal strength hive that wasn't fed sub? ( maybe you have missed feeding some?)

    What do you do with booming hives in Jan?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    697

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    1 round is 7-10lbs of sub. They get one round end of Aug then another sometime in Nov. Early jan I give them about 5 lbs to wake them up. I move my bees down to CA in October. Hives are mostly doubles some are singles. Singles get a second boxes with feeder and are fed syrup way more than doubles. I have never counted brood frames when feeding. I rarely pull frames out this time of year but Hives fed sub are between 14-18 frames of bees in Jan while the ones not fed are around 8-10. Some of darker bees could have 6 frames if not fed sub. We split hives in Jan right before almonds and balance with our late summer nucs.

    We have a yard that has not yet received sub. I will count the frames of brood in hives with sub vs without and will let you know within a few days.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    924

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    So what is your recipe up to this point

    The isolate is it soy isolate?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Weeki Wachee, Florida,USA
    Posts
    1,822

    Default Re: Pollen Sub Improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    So what is your recipe up to this point

    The isolate is it soy isolate?
    I did use soy isolate. It was available locally last year and a bit pricy.
    This year I haven't seen it locally. I was going to change the egg product and had a couple ideas for alternatives that would work better. My local source for Brewers Yeast is gone so if I find it locally it might be a different brand and nutritional level? Or shipped it will double the cost.
    So I guess my goal of creating a sub that offered the good value while addressing my needs is turning into a wild goose chase. The commercial subs I've tried where not being consumed fast enough and created SHB issues, maybe I didn't use it right.
    Suggestions?

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