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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Bryant, AL
    Posts
    64

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    was going to try rite-cell for the first time - the website lists with insert and without, Does anyone know the difference?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,459

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    Quote Originally Posted by DonShackelford View Post
    I assumed all you "big guys" used plastic frames since it would seem an overwhelming job to assemble and insert wax in large quantities.
    Since you apparently don't use frames like pierco's, can I ask why?
    A note here, Pierco tells me they now offer double waxed frames.
    I don't like plastic frames for a few reasons.

    They're plastic. Wood is good...and a renewable resource.
    Plastic frames deflect sideways when I try to pull them from the box...wood pops up as it should. Wood is good.
    The bees like wax foundation better than plastic and draw it better and with a smaller flow than plastic.
    Plastic frames get burr-combed into place making colony examination more difficult and pissing off the bees when you attempt to separate boxes.
    Plastic frames twist and warp when I handle them.

    Heavy plastic frames hurt my hands when I handle them. Wood is soft. Wood is good.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,199

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    I use Mann Lake plastic inserts. heavy plastic and deep cells
    I quit using permadent because of its flimsiness
    I use inserts because I like the wooden frame over the all plastic
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Hortonville, WI., USA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    I use wood frames with grooved top and grooved bottom bar. In the frames I use PermaDent foundation. It is a plastic foundation with a good wax coating. It even smells like bees wax. http://shop.honeybeeware.com/Deep-Fo...ated-120PD.htm The foundation is less expensive than wax and other foundation. The frames do not need wiring. Very fast and efficient product to use. I find the bees accept it and draw it out just as if it were all wax. I use it in my hive bodies as well as my honey supers.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Hortonville, WI., USA
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    You mention you quit using permadent foundation because of it being flimsy. Are you sure you were using the brand PermaDent or are you just using permadent as a generic term for plastic foundation? The real PermaDent foundation is not flimsy in any way and is a very good product.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,199

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    nope, I meant PermaDent foundation, it has about half the plastic per sheet, hence the reason why its cheaper.

    Those sheets will bend and push out far easier than the thicker plastic foundations, I pay the extra few cents on Mann Lake foundation.

    You will see a big difference between the foundations when pallets accidentally get knocked over. PermaDent foundations push out of the frames, where as I have yet to have a Mann Lake do the same
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    4,063

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    i have a lot of the Mann Lake Plastic frame because they are stone cheap when you buy them unwaxed and do it yourself. I shave them to 1 1/4 so 11 fit in a box and find they get drawn very nicely and after they are drawn they are not nearly so flimsy feeling. I have an embarrassing amount of duragilt I have been storing for 28 years and have no exceptional problem with that much maligned product either. It all works if managed properly.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,211

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    My first frames, the first year, were top bars (top bar hives). After that I went with Mann Lake PF's. Deep for brood, and medium for supers. Then I bought some medium Mann Lake wooden frames that were on sale for more supers. If I were starting over I would do the Deep Mann Lake Pf's for brood and the wooden Mann Lake frames for supers.
    I got used to manipulating TBH comb the first year, and so while others complain that the ML Deep Plastics are flimsy they are a lot stiffer than unframed comb and easy enough for me to get used to.
    Now as for honey supers the plastic frames are not as easy to use as the wooden ones. They slide more in the extractor, and I worry that if I ever mechanize the uncapping - say a Kelley jiggle knife - the plastic frames will get more easily damaged.
    Interestingly, to me at least, even though the plastic frames do get more burr comb they get less stuck together with propolis than the wooden ones. There is something about propolis that binds frame wood to frame wood and box. The plastic frames always separate from each other more easily. I am using ten frames to a box.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,729

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    Like Mr. Palmer said:

    Wired deep wax foundation, cross wired in wood frames.

    Kelly Foundation, if readily available.

    We do use wedge top bars, and a BeA staple gun, (is it faster than waxing?)

    Plans are to recreate my G. Grandfather's foundation mill in the not too distant future.

    How do you recycle the old plastic frames/foundation????And does it degrade/decompose into the honey?


    Crazy Roland

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Jefferson County, WA, USA
    Posts
    132

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    I have mannlake pf 100 plastic frame with sc foundation. I recently have been cutting the foundation out of the plastic frames and inserting them into a wood frame. I like the feel of a wood frame far better than the flimsy plastic. I wish Mann lake would sell sheets of sc plastic foundation. I also have some foundationless. All frames have been narrowed to a 1 1/4".

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Indianapolis IN 46227
    Posts
    285

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    How do you recycle the old plastic frames/foundation????
    I gather them up with old batteries and mercury light bulbs and put them in the trash

    I was hoping to hear better reports from the big guys on plastic. I've been making all my own re-enforced foundationless frames so far, but can't keep up and was looking for a quick way to backfill the shortage.

    Back to the drawing board.
    Last edited by DonShackelford; 01-24-2013 at 05:03 AM.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Wausau, WI, USA
    Posts
    212

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    When I first started I used wired wax foundation in wired wood frames. The bees do seem to like this the best. However, it's very time consuming to do, and hard on the hands. A friend of mine is a commercial bee with experience in one of the bee labs. He did some side by side comparison of foundations. This was done in multiple yards, on multiple hives. Multiple brands of foundation were put into the hives. No wax foundation was used during this comparison. In 95% of the hives, the bees drew out the Pierco foundation first. Second was the Dadant Plasticell, and third was Mann Lake Rite-Cell. It didn't seem to matter if it was a foundation inserted into a wood frame, or an all plastic frame. This commercial beek uses all wood frames with plastic foundation in his brood boxes, and all plastic frames/foundation in his honey supers. My own operation; I use wood frames and black, Pierco foundation in my brood nest, and a mixture of wood and plastic frames with black Pierco foundation in my honey supers. The bees draw it out great. I do not apply a coat of sugar syrup onto the frames before installing into the hives as recommended by Pierco. It didn't seem to make a difference.

    Wisnewbee

    Bill

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Benton, Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    211

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    So much good info, thanks everyone! I am a 3rd year beekeeper, small (6 hives). In my hives is a mixture of duragilt and regular beeswax foundation, that are wired. All on wooden frames.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Tyrone, Pennsylvania,USA
    Posts
    353

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use


  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,199

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    Looks good DC Bees, but I dont think that is foundation, rather naturally built comb
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Tyrone, Pennsylvania,USA
    Posts
    353

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Looks good DC Bees, but I dont think that is foundation, rather naturally built comb
    Just having a little fun,is spring here yet?

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,199

    Default Re: Foundation - what kind do you use

    no doubt
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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