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  1. #121
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    Dec 2010
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    hinesville ga usa
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    239

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Beekeeping beliefs are like religious beliefs, but so far there is less killing each other over them.
    I posted earlier in this thread and have since contacted my state bee inspector to ask about selling some nucs next spring. I explained that I have treatment free bees ( four years mite treatment free. ) He was nice but very skeptical and told me that Ga. law requires that I treat them before offering them for sale . He then asked what stock bee I had, I explained that they were survivor bees, he said they recommended against keeping survivor bees.Then I mentioned that I would place them in deep langs after converting them from top bar hives. I also stated that the langs would be foundationless. I think I may have heard a gasp and a period of silence.
    I won't go into the back and forth frustrated conversation that continued for an hour. I felt sorry for the guy I am sure for him I was the phone call from hell. He did offer many reasons why it all wouldn't work and predicted that one day a disease would suddenly wipe all my bees out. But to his credit we worked it out and I will call for an inspection this fall after I treat with Apivar for mites. He understands that my top bar parent hives will be kept a good distance from my langs and the top bar will not be treated and the langs will be treated and they will not be mixed, and only the treated bees will be sold. Under the circumstances I felt he did a great job, maybe I will learn a lot from him and he might change his opinion about top bar hives, well we can hope.

  2. #122
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    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    2,771

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Beekeeping beliefs are like religious beliefs, but so far there is less killing each other over them.
    Yes... something along the lines of "Saharia".
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  3. #123
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    Apr 2013
    Location
    Josephine County,Oregon,USA
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    94

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    The brand new hello I just posted mentions this theme!It makes for a sad lack of local mentors. I DO know Lang folks can give lots of good general experienced knowledge to ponder though,too.....at least.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,608

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    That is a whole other thread! You don' t have to run TBH's to be criticized for that.
    Yeah well, what the other guy said. actually I find I am eventually criticized for just about anything I do with bees. usually by the person that gave the advice in the first place. I simply look to the bees about how to keep them. Treat them when they get sick and just figure it's everyone elses fault. my bees will no longer need treatment when they stop making my healthy bees sick with their sick bees.

    Back to the topic. my TBH is still not doing well. it does hang on though. it never has done well. I put a swarm in it last June and it just puttered along all summer. now it has a brood nest about the size of a gold ball and barely enough bees to cover that. but the queen is right their still hanging on.

    I have found one reason to make the effort to get this hive up and running. and that is it is very convenient to monitor as to the seasonal activities of the bees. The activities of a TBH are somewhat indicative of what would be going on in a lang.

    I am not sure I take a comment that bees want anything form a beekeeper that never gave them any other choice. I say bees want to expand. I have not idea of what their preference in direction is. I just did a cut out from a long tall pillar. much like a lang hive would be. according to the position of the cluster in that colony they would not be moving up. They where at the top and in fact would have had to have moved down to go anywhere.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #125
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    Apr 2013
    Location
    Battleground, WA
    Posts
    15

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    I am new to beekeeping and new to this forum. Over the past year, I've been reading beekeeping books, watching videos, watching youtube videos, and I attended beekeeping classes given by three different local experts.

    I went with a kenyan top bar hive because it looked less complicated to me. I have sprained my back a number of times in the past and I don't want to do that again if I can avoid it. Then I had abdominal surgery for stomach cancer, and so my abdominals are not that strong either. Until this year I thought I was as strong as an ox, but not now. I don't really care what other people use, and I know that all of the popular methods actually work as far as producing some honey and giving the bees a place to set up a hive, which is all I am interested in. I like working with nature, animals and plants.

    After reading in a number of places about controversies regarding hive type, I wondered if biases would cloud any advice I got. I went to the local beekeeping club, once, but it was so formalized as a meeting, and I felt like I didn't learn anything. So I've been depending on the books and internet to learn. At one of the classes I went to about top bar beekeeping, the teacher seemed to downplay the top bar hives, expecially Kenyan top bar hive, which I thought was odd because he sells them, along with Warre and Langstroth hives and equipment. At the other class i went to, the instructor was more enthusiastic about the Kenyantop bar hive, but did not commit as to what he liked better, and he also sells all three types.

    Over the winter I built a kenyan top bar hive from a purchased kit. I like the idea of working with one bar at a time. Two weeks ago I installed a package of bees. All went as expected. The weather here is chilly now. They have built comb, but are not foraging much that I can see. I assume when it warms up they will be out for nectar and pollen. I feel uncertain about some aspects, but so far, at the very beginning, I feel OK about that.

    Too bad there is posturing and animosity or attitude about hive type. Makes me not want to go to a bee club. I'm too introverted anyway. I'm not a hermit but after spending my days working with so many people, I like being by myself in the yard and garden.

    My hope here is to learn what I need to learn to keep bees, not have them swarm or die, get some honey and honeycomb, and sit in my chair and watch them collect pollen from the trees and dandelions. I also put in a 1/4 acre wildflower meadow, but that might not be blooming until next year.

    I hope people will be open to the different methods and cross pollinate each other with their experiences and ideas.

  6. #126
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Roanoke, VA
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    1,029

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    I can understand people that sell stuff not being very enthusiastic about TBHs. A lot of TBH folks make there own hive, so there is little money to be made from someone who sells bee supplies (no foundations, extractors, frames, etc). And it wouldn't be good business sense to talk up TBHs if that means you may loose money. Don't stop going to meetings, there is a lot of information exchanged, and most importantly the contacts you may meet. Just because "Old Joe" has never seen a TBH it doesn't mean he hasn't seen AFB, Nosema, Varroa, etc, and you can get help from the folks you meet, or just exchange ideas.

  7. #127
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,424

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by eukofios View Post
    The weather here is chilly now. They have built comb, but are not foraging much that I can see. I assume when it warms up they will be out for nectar and pollen. I feel uncertain about some aspects, but so far, at the very beginning, I feel OK about that.
    Long as they do not run out of food, ie, you feed them if need be if they cannot collect their own, and they should be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by eukofios View Post
    Too bad there is posturing and animosity or attitude about hive type.
    Just make sure that person is not you. The criteria should not be that a person has to wildly support Kenya TBH's and dis everything else or you write them off as a beekeeper. If the people who ran your courses took a neutral stance, what more can you reasonably ask? Shannon's post was very good, many of these folks you mention will be good beekeepers who can offer you a lot. This transcends the mere shape of the box the bees live in.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Lakeland, FL USA
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    762

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by eukofios View Post

    I'm not a hermit but after spending my days working with so many people, I like being by myself in the yard and garden.
    Amen to that.

    .

  9. #129
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    Apr 2013
    Location
    Battleground, WA
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    15

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Thanks for the comments. I think I'm pretty much a no-attitude guy. Nothing to prove. Not trying to convince anyone of anything, no agenda. Just trying to learn.

    Thanks for the advice about feeding. I have an in-hive feeder with sugar water. Today was sunny and the bees were in the flowering cherry trees, so I think that's a good sign.

    Sunny day. I pulled up a lawn chair near the hive and watched them flying in and out and around. Gave me peace of mind.

  10. #130
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    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,189

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    I'd have to say that the reaction from folks in the bee club here has been more a kind of tolerant amusement, and that's fine. So far as I can tell, none of them have any experience with top bar hives or (as in my case) long hives.

    But the guy I got my first bees from has become interested in the long hive, and talked about building one himself. Running frames without foundation was a new idea to him; he can hardly believe what nice comb my bees are building without foundation.

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Albany, ga
    Posts
    17

    Angry Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    stan.vick wrote "He was nice but very skeptical and told me that Ga. law requires that I treat them before offering them for sale ."

    I have been in one meeting and heard the Ga inspector speak. I wondered how much he really new about beekeeping. Is his knowledge from reading pamphlets, not books and not experience? The only comment I really remember was that it was recommended that all swarms in Ga. be killed unless you knew for certain that it came from your own hive.

    Did you ask to see the state law in writing? I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free. He is in Lula, GA.

    Is treatment required for in-state sales or only for out of state sales?

    stan.vick wrote, "Then I mentioned that I would place them in deep langs after converting them from top bar hives. I also stated that the langs would be foundationless. I think I may have heard a gasp and a period of silence."

    I fear if it is not in a white box it is outside his thinking.

    Stan before you make that drastic step toward drugs check around and make certain what the law requires. If there truly is a written law that requires mite treatment for all sales, could the treatment not be powdered sugar?

    I hate to see good survivor stock turn into drug addicts.

  12. #132
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,424

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calvin King View Post
    I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free.
    He is small cell, he is not treatment free.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Baytown, TX., USA.
    Posts
    646

    Exclamation Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Eukofios Oltimer is very correct about feeding now. Note that ALL the food the package has is in that can that came with them! You must feed them until they have built some comb and stored some honey in that comb. That may take some time if the weather and your bloom date work against them. FEED!
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  14. #134
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
    Posts
    737

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Criticism from other beeks, Yes. From the bees? Well, if they don't like it, they abscond or they die. Standard Lang's, Top Bar Hives, William Broughton Carr hives, mini mating nucs, non-standard hive dimensions, observer hives, I've kept and lost bees from each. Seems the WBC hive holds them in the best of all, but I don't have enough of them to make a statistically significant statement.

    Surprising how much response and emotion seems to be going into a moot point. It reminds me of the beer commercial, "LESS FILLING!" "TASTES GREAT!", or the Ford vs. Chevrolet question...to which my favorite answer is, "Niether one beats a P-51 Mustang."

    I back up "don't listen to criticism..." ...to which I would add, "that is not backed up with data nor experience!". I'd also back up Oldtimer in mentioning the physical differences regarding long hives vs. vertical hives, which makes a difference if you are one of the bees inside the box! Cluster movement can be critical.

    As far as adapting from Langstroth to TBH, it is not difficult to make an adapter box, and let the bees draw out their own comb while "moving in" to the TBH.

    Michael Bush has made a good point in the past - foundationless frames are very durable compared to Top Bar combs. Many folks have strongly suggested that a starter strip of foundation sure helps get the comb oriented in the correct direction. I admit that I have grown a preference to foundationless medium Langstroth frames over top bar hives, as they can be accelerated in an extractor very easily, without breaking, and producing a lot more honey than TBH. Now, I can see the weight needle on my scale point to a larger number in pounds of honey, and I give that much more consideration than I give to criticism from inexperienced folks without data!

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Johnson City, TN
    Posts
    376

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    It goes in all directions. I don't like it when people try to preach thier methods as gospell. Top bar people say it is the only way, Lang guys say top bars are a waist of time, warre say that is they only way. To each his own. I get tired of things like people will be talking about treatments or something and the chem free guys who have thier own forum start jumping in like they know everything and thats the only way to do it. That's just an example. I started with langs and had a top bar. I got critisized both ways.
    All beekeepers can agree on one thing, and that one thing is, that all beekeepers can't agree on one thing.

  16. #136
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
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    737

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    More power to you. Build some of each type, put bees in them, start letting the bees teach us. See what works for you. Keep notes on pounds of honey produced, mite counts in the sticky paper under the SBB, evidence of bitten mites, uncapping of pink- or purple-eyes pupae, other hygenic habits, fly-out distance, proboscus length, any trait you can document.

    OBSERVED RAW DATA TRUMPS OPINIONS 7 DAYS A WEEK.

  17. #137
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    Dec 2010
    Location
    hinesville ga usa
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    239

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    [QUOTE=Calvin King;923652]stan.vick wrote "He was nice but very skeptical and told me that Ga. law requires that I treat them before offering them for sale ."

    I have been in one meeting and heard the Ga inspector speak. I wondered how much he really new about beekeeping. Is his knowledge from reading pamphlets, not books and not experience? The only comment I really remember was that it was recommended that all swarms in Ga. be killed unless you knew for certain that it came from your own hive.

    Did you ask to see the state law in writing? I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free. He is in Lula, GA.

    Is treatment required for in-state sales or only for out of state sales?

    stan.vick wrote, "Then I mentioned that I would place them in deep langs after converting them from top bar hives. I also stated that the langs would be foundationless. I think I may have heard a gasp and a period of silence."

    I fear if it is not in a white box it is outside his thinking.

    Stan before you make that drastic step toward drugs check around and make certain what the law requires. If there truly is a written law that requires mite treatment for all sales, could the treatment not be powdered sugar?

    I hate to see good survivor stock turn into drug addicts.[/QUOTE

    Hello Calvin
    At this time I choose not to get in a peeing contest with the state inspector, I want to keep an open mind and learn what I can from him and try to show him what I am doing and the results of my methods at this stage. It's not like I am going to treat my basic breeding stock, so my plans of developing a better bee will continue as before. I am retired from Ga. state law enforcement so I know he could be referring to a departmental regulation or state law, both have the same effect of enforcement, but a regulation is much easier to change. I just don't think now is the time for me to try to change anything in the legal area.
    I am in reality a new beek and don't intent to pretend otherwise, at this point I can show the state inspector bees that have been known to be treatment free for over four years, now when I can show him six years without treatment in this climate I can start strutting a little. I just think we all have to be a lot less closed minded and try to see where the other "guy" is coming from and why he thinks the way he does, only then can we change ourselves and others to see what is the best way forward.
    I'll get off my soap box now, we have a long way to go Calvin I am glad there are people like you trying to improve the bee situation.

  18. #138
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
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    Fayetteville, Arkansas
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    5,018

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by stan.vick View Post
    I thought the Fat Beeman's bees were treatment free. He is in Lula, GA.
    He claims use of FGMO, not what I'd call treatment free, but not any sort of dangerous or poisonous.

    The nucs I purchased from him had some sort of inspection certification on them. I don't remember there being mandated treating involved. If there was, then he didn't advertise it.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  19. #139
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by stan.vick View Post
    I am in reality a new beek and don't intent to pretend otherwise, at this point I can show the state inspector bees that have been known to be treatment free for over four years, now when I can show him six years without treatment in this climate I can start strutting a little.
    In my opinion 4 years is plenty to demonstrate it can be done. You can strut a little.

    However I liked what you said about seeing the other guys point of view. There is normally more than one side to every story. Perhaps this attitude comes from your years in law enforcement.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #140
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    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ojai, California
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    737

    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    When I first got into beekeeping, a few things occurred to me as quite obvious. One was that I would have to get in to queen breeding and stock improvement, another was that there would be more than two ways to do most everything and that I would certainly try most hive arrangements. I knew that this would slow my efforts toward commercial beekeeping, but I figured that in the long run, I would be glad that I tried some of each. Why make 3,000 of the box that doesn't work as well as the other? It turns out that hive management is far more important than box configuration.

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