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Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

45K views 152 replies 58 participants last post by  shannonswyatt 
#1 ·
Do other beekeepers ever criticize or mock you for having a TBH? Just curious how common this experience is.
 
#69 ·
The only wrong thing in beekeeping is not enough of us try different things in keeping bees. I have TBH . I have run double queen lang and have gone and made back to back hives and run supers up the middle. twice as many bees to make a the h0ney. In short nothing is right or wrong in beekeeping Do what ever stings your brain into action..
 
#72 ·
Yes, when I was doing the math in my head I wasn't thinking about the frames and foundation. I always for get those, and they do add up when you start adding boxes. You could could get everything for a single hive for under $200, assuming you were thinking 4 deeps (hope you have a strong back!). My point was that if you are using top bar hives as a way to save money you have to build them yourself, otherwise of you may as well run Langs. The commercial hives that I've seen online are much nicer than what I have built, and some are made from premium lumber, so I understand the premium cost. Plus they have a lot more over head than me and my Skil Saw.

At this point I wouldn't pay a whole lot for a top bar hive, but I do think that I'm going to start purchasing the bars. I don't have a table saw and they are pretty much a pain to make without one. I did make about 150 or so a few months back with a built in wedge with my Skil Saw and some home made jigs, but it was very labor intensive. I shouldn't need anymore bars this year unless I do very well with swarms traps (which I doubt I will).
 
#74 ·
... My point was that if you are using top bar hives as a way to save money you have to build them yourself, otherwise of you may as well run Langs. ...
TBH mainly used by hobbyists who do not count every penny... I think that the main reason why TBHs become popular is that TBH is offering more "natural" way of beekeeping. Based on numerous posts many people successfully use TBH. I do not understand this annoying comparison between TBH and Lang. Many different beehive designs had been invented and many designs are successful. For instance, Rose beehive and Japanese national beehive. Why only Lang? Sergey
 
#76 ·
... I hadn't heard of the Japanese National, going to check that out.
Sort of Warre but without movable frames at least in the supers. Honeycomb essentially continued from one box to another. They use steel string to separate the boxes and extract from the entire box - I saw on youtube. I do not remember how they extract. Rose - crush-and-strain entire box. Sergey
 
#79 ·
Christy list Phil as a mentor in her book, and you can tell that based on her management style with Top Bar Hives (not that anything is wrong with that). I think I liked Les's book better mainly because I don't prefer the center entrance method, but that is just me. I also think that the way they illustratated comb management was clearer, but that may have just been because I read Christy's book on the iPad, and the graphics were black and white on the iPad. I guess they do that so they can be viewed properly on Kindles and Nooks.
 
#80 ·
I am sure many consider him to be their mentor. If so, whatever works for them.

My only beef with Phil is he is rather closed minded to any way other than his way. I still haven't worked out if he is really that closed minded as a person, or if it's just a stance he's taken in his book to boost sales.
 
#82 ·
Wow, there have been a lot of post for such a young forum.

I am a member of a young bee club. It is only two years old and most members are new to beekeeping with only a few long-term keepers. Yes there was some negativity for a while. However last year at one point, we had 5 or 6 people with TBH’s. I am the only one still attending meetings. Is it because of some made them feel inferior? I don’t know. I am still hanging in there and next month I have been asked to be the club speaker. Why? I have paid my dues. How? Two ways

1. It was said at club meeting many times, “There is money in beekeeping. Your money!” Shannonswyatt wrote: “Yes, we can always justify speeding money on a hobby!” I am able to say that I have less than $20 in first two hives. Right now I have the parts cut for six more hive in the back of the truck. Those have cost nothing so far. I will use the left over glue and screws to put them together, so maybe these six will cost me another $20. I got a lot more than $20 in honey last year.
2. I not only still have my original two colonies, I have managed to add one. Entering the third year with no losses. I know my time is coming when I will lose colonies. I know of no other in our club that can say that. I know that it is pure luck and some really good bees, but it does help my credibility.

I am sure that all the smirking is not over and I might get dumped on during the Q&A at the next meeting, but I don’t think so. I enjoy the company of my fellow beekeepers, so I can take what comes.
 
#83 ·
I built two oak top bar hives, because they seemed easy to build and I have a pile of oak 1x12s. A friend is giving me two old langs, and I couldn't be more excited about getting to try and have experience with both. No preaching about the 'right way' coming from this direction. Who are these "passionate" blowhards being so negative?
 
#84 ·
No preaching about the 'right way' coming from this direction. Who are these "passionate" blowhards being so negative?
Because they think that others doing it their way makes them right.

Like those here that think if they can insult you you it makes them right. People do some strange things. and many follow right along. It's how we end up with politicians being chosen. Very few people are genuinely intelligent. It takes to much effort.
 
#85 ·
Well, I think that they were taught to keep bees a certain way and because of that, it becomes the only way that will work in there eyes. In reality it isn't hostility (generally) from folks, it is more of a general "that won't work mentality". But I would say most of them are well meaning, they are just trying to point out that we don't know what we are doing. I will agree that I have a lot to learn, but you learn from trying, and I'm trying several ways. Hopefully I learn more that way!
 
#86 ·
I'm a second year beek. I run horizontal hives, they each hold 20 lang frames with the "tabs" cut off nailed to top bars. I can put another 20 frames on in supers, which is nice. I made them myself from a lot of stuff that I already had around, only had to buy hardware and frames. I thought when I built them that it looked easy to manage, and frankly I couldn't afford langs, and the finger joints made them too difficult to build. I've met with a lot of negativity from my local "mentor" assigned by the beekeeping club. But I've had another local beek be supportive. I think it depends on the person. I had people tell me I wouldn't get any honey, or that I'd have so many problems with cross comb that I'd give up, thatthey won't overwinter in my climate, that the bees won't build horizontally. I figure, in the wild bees don't build exclusively in vertical tree cavities. Clearly I don't have the experience of some to fall back on, and my hives didn't make the winter, but it seems to me that was a combination of bad dumb luck, and bad dumb management :pinch: (one died earlier in the year, the queen just never started laying, one was from a late small swarm, became queenless late, and never really got going well enough to overwinter.) trying again this year with the same horizontal hives. I would like very much to try a standard top bar as well as a standard lang, just to see the differences. I think that there is something to be learned from all of them, and personal preference makes a lot of difference to what you end up using. It is frustrating though when the only experienced beeks in your immediate area will hardly even speak to you because you've chosen to run a non standard hive. :(
 
#87 ·
Re the overwintering issues, the reason given why long hives may not winter as well in a cold climate, is that the cluster can have trouble moving along sideways to new combs to get honey, whereas in a vertical hive, moving up the combs is easier for them. I'll bet that's why you've been told they won't winter as well, and there is some truth to it. So, next winter just be aware, and in your set up, you may need to check from time to time and if need be move some honey towards and in contact with the cluster.
If things are super cold and the bees lethargic, they may not even uncap the honey when you move it so scratch a few cappings just to give them the idea.

Hey if you want to build your own lang boxes, don't mess with finger joints just do rebated joints. That's all I have and they are strong and totally adequate.
 
#89 ·
> Hey if you want to build your own lang boxes, don't mess with finger joints just do rebated joints.

We learned from previous Oldtimer posts that rebated joints is an alternate term for dado joints. :D (In the US, rebate commonly refers to a discount or partial refund when purchasing a product.)

Here is a rebate (dado) joint, although this illustration is a T joint. In a hive corner dado joint the uppermost end of the T would not be there.



My Lang hives are made with dado joints, and they are certainly adequate for hives. Obviously you need good glue - Titebond II or III is recommended - and often there are staple, nail or screw fasteners as well.
 
#92 ·
+1 on Titebond III. That stuff is incredible. Never really understood the difference for the bees moving back versus up. I do understand it in a wall were they may have a single uninterrupted piece of comb that is 6 or 8 feet long, mostly what I have seen in structures is comb laid out more like that in a top bar, with row after row of comb that is 6 or 8 inches deep, and they move back further into the stores as the winter progresses. Seem that moving up through the comb in a lang means crossing gaps between the boxes. That may not be a big deal though. I do know that bees will chew through the comb to get direct access to the next bar of comb though.
 
#94 ·
Yes I've thought about it, I forgot the education I received in that thread Radar mentioned, it's all my bad English.

Rabbet, rabbet, rabbet!!

Actually in my own defence :), in my first beekeeping job, we cut the boxes ourselves. Everybody I worked with pronounced the rabbet, as rebate. I think as a young guy that was probably ingrained into my psyche, and is the source of my on-going diction problems, LOL
 
#96 ·
Look out for one more group If you are getting rude or "down their nose" comments, check to see if the person makes money from the sale of supplies or has a lot of money tied up in Langstroth hives. The reason I started out with TBH is to avoid a LOT of expense. I can see how some would have angst about us getting honey without spending all that money or buying supplies from them. I will be cleanly ready for honey, hive, books and equipment for under $150. That's less than a starter kit and it's final. Langstroth produces a LOT of honey. TBH makes enough to enjoy and is good for the bees. We each must choose and many who would run us down are just snobs.
 
#98 ·
I quit going to the county bee keepers meeting when one fellow almost fainted over the fact that I had put bees I bought from him in a top bar hive. He went on and on about how I was making a mistake, and I was causing problems for other area bee keepers with my no treatment bee having!
 
#99 ·
I am a first year beek and have yet to actually get any bees.
the only negativity I have received so far was from the local bee supply store. I was told I was not smart for considering tbh (I had not yet decided which way to go, yet) and was shown a hive said to be a tbh in their showroom that was not doing well. As I did research I learned it was actually a demonstration langstroth that they had thrown top bars in and then had treated as a regular langstroth, not touching it again for some time. By the time they got back around to it the bees had cross combed and glued everything together into a large mess.
As for the local beekeeping group, I actually followed plans provided on their website to build my TBH's. I have mentioned them once in meetings (there have only been two meetings so far since I joined in January) and while most there ignored my questions I think it was more because they had not clue how to answer them instead of some deeply hidden animosity. My only worry is that I have had problems finding someone to show me the ropes for keeping a tbh in my area and so am going to be flying by the seat of my pants here in about four weeks.
 
#100 ·
My only worry is that I have had problems finding someone to show me the ropes for keeping a tbh in my area and so am going to be flying by the seat of my pants here in about four weeks.
i fu really have no support or mentor especially for the TBH...i personally would recommend starting with langs. im not against tbh's and we are putting our swarms/cutouts in them this year. but, my point is that you are entirely new to such a stewardship that it could almost certainly be tragic with out A) support or a mentor and or B)experience in beekeeping. trust me...this is yr 3 for us and we learn every day what NOT to do hahaha. just go with what is readily available instead of turning ur new passion into a tragic statistic :)


just lookin out...because we need more backyard beeks.
 
#101 ·
My guess is no one had a TBH. I demonstrated how they worked and the first question was how do you put in foundation. When I mentioned they work like a foundationless Lang the president felt the need to explain that as most people there didn't know that you could have a hive without foundation.
 
#102 ·
My guess is no one had a TBH. I demonstrated how they worked and the first question was how do you put in foundation. When I mentioned they work like a foundationless Lang the president felt the need to explain that as most people there didn't know that you could have a hive without foundation.[/QUOTE)

We were inspecting a hive on a blueberry orchard (unsprayed) when a beekeeping friend came by to pick berries. In her 25 years of beekeeping she had never seen a foundationless frame and was amazed that it is possible. She was very excited to see the naturally drawn comb. I have also been questioned by an extremely reknowned researcher as to how my bees draw foundationless small cell comb. To this day I don't know exactly what the researcher was trying to understand as I can't imagine they haven't seen comb in the wild. Maybe it was a small cell thing...

Ramona
 
#103 ·
I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere on this site, but rather than listening to skeptical suppliers who have no experience with TBHs, pick up a copy of Mangum's book: Top-bar Hive Beekeeping. I myself have only seen excerpts, but people whose opinion I trust and respect have given it good ratings. (Not to get too far OT, though.)

That said, it is helpful at first to have some experienced around. But today one can also get a lot of help online (certainly here, I think). Maybe you can ask at your beekeeping group if there might be someone who's a got of bit of curiousity about such things that might be willing to look in on you as needed.

-Kevin
 
#105 ·
Yes, our Intro to beekeeping class from local forest preserve is run by a renowned Lang expert starting in 1933! So he's been around a while. In over 18hrs worth of classes, he allowed a whole whopping 12 minutes for a speaker to describe TBH methods and showing the speaker's empty swarm hive. Unfortunately, the expert didn't understand how many folks were interested in this method - during break 2/3 of the class was surrounding the speaker with questions...and again after class....and the speaker was asked for his personal information from over 1/2 of those interested. Thankfully, he's a local beek teacher and is happy to share his information with all.

Seems to me there's enough local interest to conduct classes!
 
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