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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    I think he was comparing fully assembled, because I was thinking the same thing too.

  2. #62
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    longton, kansas USA
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    im a second year beekeeper and this year im making arrangements to dive in deeper into beekeeping. adding at least 10 to my yard. i worked with one for about a year and a half and have been studying and researching all things beekeeping...im in love with it. and u better believe im going to have both langs and tbh's. why not ? the benefits to both are good enough to use both. not to mention how standard langs are in the industry....with every part and piece know to the beek. with that being said...give the tbh a few years and it will be standardized as well. tbh's produce wonderful product for the comb customer and langs are great producers of drawable honey,pollen,queens,propilis etc. runem both.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    I'm not so sure we will see any standardization soon. At this point there is nothing close to agreement as to what the proper size for a top bar hive. It would take a manufacture to start producing top bar hives and selling oodles of them. It's not that it couldn't happen, but the fact that it has not happened yet means there most not be much of a profit motive by the bigger manufacturers, or agreement on dimensions. As a manufacturer they may be a disincentive since it would not likely be patent-able diminishing your returns. Also remember, we use the term Lang when speaking of a box hive with frames, but in England they use a lot of National hives, whereas in the states we tend to use Dadant, and there are other variants as well. The wonderful thing about standards, there a so many of them!

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Keep in mind that the TBH was developed for third world conditions where manufacturing does not exist and standardization was not a consideration. possible and affordable where. It is a hive design meant to just be thrown together from whatever is at hand. The Lang on the other had was designed with standardization as a key feature. They are two very different designs that serve two very different purposes. they both keep bees. I don't see the TBH ever fitting the needs of large scale beekeepers. They are great for the hobbyist just wanting to enjoy their bees. A real problems exists when trying to support a TBH from Commercial resources. I prefer to start hives form nucs rather than packages. That is difficult when all that is available is lang style nucs. So far the only bees I have in TBH's are swarms I captured. A good alternative for them as far it goes for me. I like them as drone producing hives as well. easy to access the brood nest and monitor what matters in that case. Lots of fun if you want to have a reason to fiddle with the bees more often. conducive to learning. Not so much when you no longer need all that additional "Experience".

    Anyway I see them as two different hives for two different reasons with two different expectations. and they both do what they are supposed to do well.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    +1

  6. #66
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    longton, kansas USA
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    very great points by people much more experienced than myself. i can honestly say that these forums are great and i take all of the knowledge and experience serious. thanks very much all of you.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The leader, or, the book or website.

    I think a lot of the problems started out with a TBH book that spends the first 50 pages, plus most of the rest of the book, pouring vitriol on langstroth hives. Which is a shame because although he is a convincing writer, some of his basic facts are not even correct. Gullible minds who have not yet experienced real bees, read this book, and then tell people like me I've got it all wrong. Hear enough of this and you start feeling like reacting.

    .
    What book was that?

  8. #68
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    The book i had in mind was The Barefoot Beekeeper, which I own. What dissapointed me most is the book, compared to say, Wyatt Manguns top bar book, is lightweight on actual useful info re top bar beekeeping. But instead at every turn heaps critisism on other hive designs and methods, and even worse, much of the critisisms are based on wrong information and false assumptions. The author claims he was once a commercial beekeeper, based on the level knowledge he displays in the book I would be interested to know how he actually survived.

    But the most vitriolic stuff of all would be on some web sites I've read, and as a result of this there are quite a few TBH keepers who genuinely think that TBH's are the only ethical way to keep bees, everybody else is ignorant. So sad.

    I was reluctant to name the book but did, as I was asked. If this is not appropriate moderator please delete.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #69
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    claremont,n.h.
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    The only wrong thing in beekeeping is not enough of us try different things in keeping bees. I have TBH . I have run double queen lang and have gone and made back to back hives and run supers up the middle. twice as many bees to make a the h0ney. In short nothing is right or wrong in beekeeping Do what ever stings your brain into action..

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    ....
    And I think that someone who pays $300 for a top bar should invest the cash in some tools, or just purchase Langs. I can get several Langs for $300.
    It is not simply right:
    - Lang require much more skilled labor (joint fingers, perfect square etc)
    - you are trying to compare already assembled TBH with unassembled Lang
    - I would re-phrase your sentence: "I can get several Lang boxes for $300"
    - you do not count frames, foundation etc for the Lang...
    - I built my TBH for $50 including everything. The whole point of TBH is that it is cheap.
    - I would never buy $300 TBH.
    Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The book i had in mind was The Barefoot Beekeeper, which I own. What dissapointed me most is the book, compared to say, Wyatt Manguns top bar book, is lightweight on actual useful info re top bar beekeeping.
    I haven't read that one. I've read Les Crowder's book and Christy Hemenway's, as well as the section in Michael Bush's big book pertaining to TBHs. In none of them could I detect any animus toward conventional equipment.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Yes, when I was doing the math in my head I wasn't thinking about the frames and foundation. I always for get those, and they do add up when you start adding boxes. You could could get everything for a single hive for under $200, assuming you were thinking 4 deeps (hope you have a strong back!). My point was that if you are using top bar hives as a way to save money you have to build them yourself, otherwise of you may as well run Langs. The commercial hives that I've seen online are much nicer than what I have built, and some are made from premium lumber, so I understand the premium cost. Plus they have a lot more over head than me and my Skil Saw.

    At this point I wouldn't pay a whole lot for a top bar hive, but I do think that I'm going to start purchasing the bars. I don't have a table saw and they are pretty much a pain to make without one. I did make about 150 or so a few months back with a built in wedge with my Skil Saw and some home made jigs, but it was very labor intensive. I shouldn't need anymore bars this year unless I do very well with swarms traps (which I doubt I will).

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The book i had in mind was The Barefoot Beekeeper, which I own. What dissapointed me most is the book, compared to say, Wyatt Manguns top bar book, is lightweight on actual useful info re top bar beekeeping.
    I've e-mailed Phil via YouTube on a video and he seems like a good guy. There are a lot of folks with strong opinions on all things bees, and some show a lot of passion on the subject. Phil's how to build a TBH PDF as probably been used by more folks to get started with TBH's than probably any other single resource, and I'm willing to cut him some slack. There are a lot of folks with bees pointing fingers in lots of directions with passion today. I don't have a clue as to what has caused all the problems with bees, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the boxes themselves.

    Wyatt's book is very detailed on the construction of his his hives, and has more photos than a National Geographic magazine! I also Les Crowder's book and Christy Hemenway's books as well. I really like the way that comb management was illustrated in Les's book. I read Christy's book as an e-book, so it was black and white. It may have come across better on paper. I would like to see Wyatt edit his book back to a much smaller and affordable so that more people would get a chance to read it. I would buy that book too!

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    ... My point was that if you are using top bar hives as a way to save money you have to build them yourself, otherwise of you may as well run Langs. ...
    TBH mainly used by hobbyists who do not count every penny... I think that the main reason why TBHs become popular is that TBH is offering more "natural" way of beekeeping. Based on numerous posts many people successfully use TBH. I do not understand this annoying comparison between TBH and Lang. Many different beehive designs had been invented and many designs are successful. For instance, Rose beehive and Japanese national beehive. Why only Lang? Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Yes, we can always justify speeding money on a hobby!

    You should run the hive you want to run. I hadn't heard of the Japanese National, going to check that out.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    ... I hadn't heard of the Japanese National, going to check that out.
    Sort of Warre but without movable frames at least in the supers. Honeycomb essentially continued from one box to another. They use steel string to separate the boxes and extract from the entire box - I saw on youtube. I do not remember how they extract. Rose - crush-and-strain entire box. Sergey
    Серёжа, Sergey

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    I just checked out the Japanese on YouTube. Pretty neat, but not sure if it would be legal in the states since it doesn't have movable comb. I'm wondering if Warre was inspired by that design.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    I don't have a clue as to what has caused all the problems with bees, but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the boxes themselves!
    Agreed, it's not the shape of the box. The science behind this idea is almost akin to medievil witchcraft, it's another ridiculous theory propagated by Phil Chandler. Properly done science tells us the common element in many bee afflictions is varroa mites. Where they are present in large numbers the bees are increasingly vulnerable to other afflictions. See -

    B Dainat, J D. Evans, Y P Chen, L Gauthier, P Neumann (2012) Predictive Markers of Honey Bee Colony Collapse. PLoS ONE 7(2): e32151. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0032151
    Abstract
    Across the Northern hemisphere, managed honey bee colonies, Apis mellifera, are currently affected by abrupt
    depopulation during winter and many factors are suspected to be involved, either alone or in combination. Parasites and pathogens are considered as principal actors, in particular the ectoparasitic mite Varroa destructor, associated viruses and the microsporidian Nosema ceranae. Here we used long term monitoring of colonies and screening for eleven disease agents and genes involved in bee immunity and physiology to identify predictive markers of honeybee colony losses during winter. The data show that DWV, Nosema ceranae, Varroa destructor and Vitellogenin can be predictive markers for winter colony losses, but their predictive power strongly depends on the season. In particular, the data support that V. destructor is a key player for losses, arguably in line with its specific impact on the health of individual bees and colonies.

    For more detailed info please see the whole study a useful read.

    And of course, what's caused the spread of varroa mites, is people moving hives all over the place, within countries, and from one country to another. They did not magically appear because of the shape of the box. People have kept bees in many shapes of box for thousands of years. What's new, is the globalisation of beekeeping with bees and queens being shipped on mass around the planet.


    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    Phil's how to build a TBH PDF as probably been used by more folks to get started with TBH's than probably any other single resource!
    In my opinion the hive is to small. Everybody I know who has used it has found it problematic, and either built a bigger TBH and transferred the bees, or moved away from TBH's altogether going Warre or Lang. The small size, certainly in my area, means the bees use the whole hive as a brood area and store little removable honey but instead swarm constantly, and I mean many times through the season.

    Quote Originally Posted by shannonswyatt View Post
    Wyatt's book is very detailed on the construction of his his hives, and has more photos than a National Geographic magazine! I also Les Crowder's book and Christy Hemenway's books as well. I really like the way that comb management was illustrated in Les's book. I read Christy's book as an e-book, so it was black and white. It may have come across better on paper. I would like to see Wyatt edit his book back to a much smaller and affordable so that more people would get a chance to read it. I would buy that book too!
    Very pleased you find these books OK I have not read the Crowder or Christy book myself, but trust that your endorsement means they do not sour things by bashing other methods.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 02-05-2013 at 01:20 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    Christy list Phil as a mentor in her book, and you can tell that based on her management style with Top Bar Hives (not that anything is wrong with that). I think I liked Les's book better mainly because I don't prefer the center entrance method, but that is just me. I also think that the way they illustratated comb management was clearer, but that may have just been because I read Christy's book on the iPad, and the graphics were black and white on the iPad. I guess they do that so they can be viewed properly on Kindles and Nooks.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Ever encountered hostility from other beekeepers over your TBH?

    I am sure many consider him to be their mentor. If so, whatever works for them.

    My only beef with Phil is he is rather closed minded to any way other than his way. I still haven't worked out if he is really that closed minded as a person, or if it's just a stance he's taken in his book to boost sales.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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