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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    9,799

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    That sounds like opening the brood nest is some fashion. So should we coin the phrase "hanging up brood" to be added to reversals, and checkerboarding?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,369

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    You can read Michael Bush's page about Unlimited Broodnest Management (ULBN) here:
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Lexington, Kentucky
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Shouldn't it be easy to keep bee's from swarming? The main practice is to give bees just enough room? Even if it means splitting them?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
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    1,269

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    keep the brood chamber clear by hanging up brood so the queen can lay.

    Crazy Roland
    So whats that mean? Should i put the frames of brood above the brood nest and replace with empty frames or drawed frames?
    Hanging up brood whats that mean?
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,648

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    roland has described putting a queen excluder above the bottom deep. when a frame of brood gets capped, he moves that capped brood up above the excluder and replaces it with a frame of empty comb.

    once the capped brood frame above the excluder emerges, the empty comb is moved back down below the excluder.

    so the capped brood frame is 'hanged up' above the excluder, and the broodnest below the excluder is kept open with empty comb for the queen to lay in.

    the side benefits of roland's method (other than being effective at swarm prevention) is that it keeps brood out of the honey frames, and it allows for the harvest of the various seasonal honey types.

    i would consider doing it this way if i were running all deeps.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    SNOW SHOE PA USA
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    1,269

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    roland has described putting a queen excluder above the bottom deep. when a frame of brood gets capped, he moves that capped brood up above the excluder and replaces it with a frame of empty comb.

    once the capped brood frame above the excluder emerges, the empty comb is moved back down below the excluder.

    so the capped brood frame is 'hanged up' above the excluder, and the broodnest below the excluder is kept open with empty comb for the queen to lay in.

    the side benefits of roland's method (other than being effective at swarm prevention) is that it keeps brood out of the honey frames, and it allows for the harvest of the various seasonal honey types.

    i would consider doing it this way if i were running all deeps.
    Ok i did read that and i am going to try that for sure thank you.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,472

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Plenty of ideas here that will stop or delay swarming. Some promote good colony population for honey production, some don't. Much is dependent on where you keep bees. Break the country up into regions, and you can see how beekeepers' management changes by region. The intense flow, and the short bee season we have in Vermont requires different management than much of the southern half of the country with a long bee season but an early end to the flow when the weather turns hot. For me, early nectar management is crucial to swarm management. I tackle this by early supering for early flows like Maple leading into Dandelion, followed at Dandelion by reversing brood chambers, additional suppering, and removing queen cells when appropriate. My colonies have an unlimited broodnest, so as not to restrict the best of the queens. As I am in a good honey production area, in order to take advantage of early flows, I no longer split my strong colonies in the spring as a swarm management tool. Splitting colonies should be at the bottom of your list for swarm management. Keeping young queens in your hives also helps. In my opinion, some stocks use swarming as their re-queening method. These can be handled by re-queening.

    But, as no one has mentioned what I feel as one of the most important factors in swarming, I will.

    It's the bees. The propensity to swarm varies among honeybee stocks. This is not just a matter of race. Yes, we can most likely agree that in general, Carniolan and Caucasian bees will start swarm preparations before Italians. That Russians will go swarm crazy when the conditions are right, and what can you say about Africans. But the propensity to swarm also varies among all your stocks.

    A low propensity to swarm can be selected for. Don't get me wrong...there will never be a non-swarming bee. Never. If your management allows you to identify those colonies that don't start swarm preparations at the drop of a hat, and your selection favors those stocks, you can reduce the swarming propensity so splitting your bees in the spring can be the last resort, and not the first.

    I know what some are saying right about now. Perhaps the words of a bee master would reinforce what I'm trying to say....

    Miller, Dr., C. C., Fifty years among the bees, 1911, The A. I. Root Co.

    But there are some colonies that will go through the whole season with never a grub in a queen-cell – possibly never an egg – and exactly those colonies are the ones most likely to give record yields. To interfere with their work, even for a week in a slight degree, is not desirable. There is also another important reason for allowing every colony willing to do so to go through the whole season without any preparation for swarming and without any interference. I am trying all the time to work at least a little toward a non-swarming strain of bee, and if all colonies were treated in advance how would I know which were the non-swarmers from which to choose my breeding stock? P. 190-191

    Among the first things a beginner thinks he has learned is that destroying queen-cells will prevent swarming, and then he is sorely disappointed to find that he is mistaken about it. But I must confess that I have a good deal more faith in it than I formerly had. Not that I would for a minute trust to it as a sole means to prevent swarming. But I do know that in a good many cases it is efficient. Perhaps one cause of my change of view is the change in my bees. Breeding constantly for improvement in storing, and at the same time giving preference to those least inclined to swarm, it is possible that destroying cells has more effect than it formerly had. P. 191-192

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,799

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Does that make number 5, whacking queen cells on the list? When we feel we have the list complete than maybe we can organize it based on goals so newbies can look at the list and decide what their first choice will be.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,269

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Does that make number 5, whacking queen cells on the list? When we feel we have the list complete than maybe we can organize it based on goals so newbies can look at the list and decide what their first choice will be.

    I'm going to try all of them and see what works best.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,648

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    glock, have you had a chance to read walt wright's 60 page manuscript?

    as far as the process of swarming and what to watch for ect., it was the most helpful information i found for me.

    since you are using all deeps, the checkerboarding part won't apply to you, but all of the rest of it will give you a better insight into what to watch for well in advance of swarm cells,

    mainly, it's how to recognize when the bees are expanding or reducing the broodnest, along with a really good timeline so you can be especially watchful during the prime swarm season.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,472

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Does that make number 5, whacking queen cells on the list?
    No it doesn't, if that's all you do. Simply cutting queen cells is not the answer. When combined with other manipulations, it can end a colony's swarming. I allow those colonies with a higher propensity to swarm to show their hand, so I can eliminate them from my breeding program. But, bynthe time they show it, I've already done some of my control like early supering.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    2,401

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    You can read Michael Bush's page about Unlimited Broodnest Management (ULBN) here:
    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm
    This really worked for me last spring. I think I only had one swarm out of the 12 I manipulated.
    President, San Francisco Beekeepers Association
    www.habitatforhoneybees.org

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,341

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    >Shouldn't it be easy to keep bee's from swarming?

    Don't know if it should be, but it's not.

    > The main practice is to give bees just enough room?

    No. The main practice is to give the bees enough room in the BROOD NEST.

    The first mistake people make about preventing swarms is they think you can just throw on some supers and they won't swarm. But they will. Yes, it's nice to have room for them to store the honey, so the supers are helpful, but the bees intend to swarm and the supers will not deter them from the plan to do a reproductive swarm.

    Back to the sequence in the Spring, the bees, during winter, rear little spurts of brood. The queen lays a little and they start rearing that batch, but they don't start any new brood until that brood emerges and they take a break. Then they rear another little batch. When pollen starts coming in they start to rear more brood to build up. They also start using up the honey they have stored. This is used to feed brood and also it makes room for more brood.

    When the bees think they have enough bees they start filling all of that back in with honey, both to stop the queen from laying, and to have adequate stores in case the main flow doesn't pan out. As the brood nest gets backfilled it makes more and more unemployed nurse bees. These nurse bees start doing a keening buzz that is quite different from the typical harmonious buzz you usually hear. More of a warble. Once the brood nest is mostly full of honey they start swarm cells. About the time they get capped the old queen leaves with a large number of bees. Even if you catch the swarm, the hive has still stopped brood production and has lost (to the swarm) a lot of bees. It's doubtful it will make honey. If there are still enough bees, the hive will throw afterswarms with virgin queens heading them.

    > Even if it means splitting them?

    That is one way to make them think they have swarmed.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,667

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Does that make number 5, whacking queen cells on the list?
    The problem with that is that newbees don't always understand the nuisances of what Michael Palmer was suggesting, nor do they have the vast experiences to "read" a colony and take appropriate measures to prevent swarming. I urge newbees never to simply whack q-cells, and certainly not as their only measure of swarm prevention. Whacking q-cells is time consuming as not every queen cell is going to be hanging off the bottom bar, particularly for those who use foundationless frames.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,667

    Default Re: S-P-M what do you do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post


    Between 300 and 400, depends what day you ask. I can not say there was only one swarm, we can only be in one spot at a time, but with our record keeping, there is no reason to believe there where a significant number of swarms.
    Roland,

    How does the approach that you use work for those who don't have drawn comb. That is, can you simply back-fill with foundation when you hang up the brood frame?

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