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Nucs versus Packages?

29K views 89 replies 41 participants last post by  bluegrass 
#1 ·
I know, an age old question and it certainly depends upon the person and the goals of their apiary.

I am growing my beeyard from 3 to 20 this year and I wanted to get some opinions on one versus the other.
 
#4 ·
Try to find a supplier who supplies true nucs. That is a nuc with a queen that has been resident with those bees in that nuc.
If you can find "over-wintered" nucs that is the best.

Some make up nucs on Monday with some bees and drop a queen in. On Friday they sell it as a nuc. These are rip offs because the queen will be superceded just like most packages.
 
#5 ·
I agree with nucs are an easier and better way to start because of drawn comb and what should be established, acquainted bees. But if numbers are all you are wanting to increase and you are worried about getting honey this first year you can get more packages for the money. My first couple of years all I did was packages and I didn't have a very high survival rate but that could have been rookie mistakes. One plus of packages over nucs is you are starting fresh on new comb. Most honeybee disease is in the comb and when you buy nucs you are hoping they are disease free but ask questions because you don't want to introduce something bad into your bee yard. Maybe that sounds like I am pro package I'm not I like nucs but just giving you something to think about with fresh wax and clean slate.
Major
 
#9 ·
I agree with Michael P. Nucs are ahead of the ball game. They have drawn comb (which takes resources to build), brood in all stages (which require resources to raise), and honey and pollen stores(which take time and energy to gather.) They cost a bit more, but are superior.
 
#10 ·
Packages seem to have gone down hill some in the last few years, now they seem to almost always supercede , which sets them back that much farther behind a Nuc. A well established nuc will out perform a nuc-age (a thrown together nuc )
 
#11 ·
split your 3 hives. there you have 6. buy 6 nucs and you have 12. buy 6 packages you will have 18. and im pretty sure you will get at least 2 swarms. CATCH THEM. shazam you have 20 and coverd all bases. and then you can tell us whats best. i caught a swarm thats how i started. then i bought a nuc. this year i want to buy some packages ,just to find out for myself.
 
#13 ·
I believe the saying that all beekeeping is local, which for my location means it makes great sense to buy overwintered nucs from a reputable breeder. Mike's point about various growth phases and nurse bees proves true to me as the nucs tend to explode about a month after hiving them. To minimize swarming, I then take frames, add a queen and make another nuc for the next season. Now I have a hive AND a nuc–all with bees proven to overwinter. Makes economical sense plus I know some of the production and treatment history, as well.

John
 
#15 ·
In 1962, I was in your situation. I ordered what is probably called Old World Carniolans nowadays, NOT the modern New World Carniolans, the former swarmed more than any other race at the time, very hard to control them. The New World Carniolans no longer have that prodigious swarming tendency. I was able to increase in one summer from 3 hives to 18 just by splitting and their natural swarming tendency. Am suggesting that since there are some queen breeders that seem to be offering lately that old Carniolan stock, (not sure if they still have that "awful" swarming tendency) that you might try them. You can always switch back to the New World Carniolans or some other race when you no longer need the swarms. OMTCW
 
#16 ·
Nucs are a more "secure" way to start - less chance of absconding, supercedure, faster buildup due to presence of brood, etc. That said, large packages hived into drawn comb can expand almost as fast. Nucs seem to have a bit of inertia to overcome - they have adapted to life on five frames, and it takes them a while to realize they have more space and start expanding. Packages, with enough feed, draw comb like gangbusters.

Packages are also a bit more standardized than nucs. A 3# package will have three pounds of bees. A five-frame nuc will have five frames, but might be jammed with bees or have only enough to cover two frames.

My choice would be to use packages to repopulate deadouts (or any hive with drawn comb) and nucs/splits to establish new hives on foundation.
 
#22 ·
Speaking of dogs with a different bark.

Packages are like swarms. Splits are like old hives.

Both can bark but they are surely not the same dog.

Package bees have the mentality of a Pitbull compared to splits which are like emaciated chihuahuas.

Now that ought to raise the hair on the backs of a couple of Short haired beekeepers!



Actually a cross breed is probably the best.

My best year was when I dumped 750 2 lb packages on top on 2 frames of brood 15 years back. Go figure? :scratch:
 
#23 ·
THere were more bees in the two frames of brood probably than the two pound package and they were time release. I agree that is a good way to go but a little complicated for the target audience here to pull off. But packages and nucs being equal is just plain silly. I will take nucs every time I have a choice and money is not hugely different.
 
#26 ·
I agree with Michael Palmer, because he is Michael Palmer, the guy that makes his living, and apparently a good one, from bees. An over wintered nuc is a beautiful thing to me. The brood is there, the queen has been accepted, and they are a functioning colony. I purchased three packages two summers back, and all three superceded their queen that same summer.

I agree with Mac that the nuc buyer needs to comprehend, "caveat vendor." I purchased three "nucs" last summer, only to find out that the queens were added to the splits two days before I picked up the bees. This beekeeper didn't know the difference between a split and a nuc. It was then early June, and I needed the bees so I accepted them. This spring I am receiving a nuc from and old established apiary, and I can't wait to see what an over wintered nuc will accomplish in a year.
 
#29 ·
I agree with Michael Palmer, because he is Michael Palmer, the guy that makes his living, and apparently a good one, from bees.
Ah yes... But lets shift gears a little and talk about actual value.

On average a nuc will cost 125-130.00 each VS a package that costs 95.00 average. So using the scenario above where the OP wants to expand by 17 hives by purchasing one or the other there is an approx cost difference of $600.00

What are the benefits of a nuc?
#1. hopefully an accepted queen, which frequently is not the case.
#2. Brood in all stages.
#3. about a 3-4 week head start on a package.
#4. Better chance of survival the first winter.

The down sides of a Nuc:
#1 All I have purchased have almost always been full of SHB
#2 If not caged the queens frequently get injured on the trip home and superseded.
#3 Frames and wax in nuc has an unknown treatment history.
#4 No guarantee that the queen isn't 3 years old.

Up side of Packages:
#1 Cannot be produced by an amateur.
#2 Producers usually produce 20-50 K packages per season and know what they are doing.
#3 Queens are reared by people who do 1000s per season and are always first year queens
#4 Cheaper than Nucs
#5 They are produced to mimic the Natural reproduction of a colony.... Full combs never walk out of a colony and make a home somewhere else.
#6 Bees are of the appropriate age to draw comb and rear brood.

Down side to Packages:
Insert what ever misinformation you like here :)

Now lets look at the cost difference in relation to what you end up with. You are paying 30.00 more for what? Okay so some package queens fail, so do some Nuc queens, There is a far smaller risk of disease with a Package because you don't have the unknown combs and brood present. A Nuc has a few week head start on a Package, but in northern areas you can buy a package a few weeks before a Nuc is even available. I have had both Packages and Nucs produce honey the first year. I will agree that a Nuc has a slightly better chance of survival the first season, but not enough to justify the 30.00 extra.

For the extra 600.00 the OP could buy an additional 6 packages and there is no way that 17 Nucs would have a better survival rate than 23 Package started hives.

Mike Palmer could verify, but I don't think he has any experience with Package bees, or not any in recent history. If the price was the same and the Nucs were coming from MP, I would buy the Nucs all day long :), But that isn't the case.

And one last thing to consider: In Europe they don't have access to package bees and they pay E 400.00 for a Nuc. Package bees keep Beekeeping semi-affordable for many hobby keepers in this country, whether they use them or not :)
 
#27 ·
Both methods work. I got my first hive in June from a NUC. At the end of Aug. it was into 2 deeps and I pulled 2 frames of brood and one frame of honey to make 2 5 frame NUCs with purchased queens. 2 months later the NUCs were in double deeps and the donor hive was back up to full strength. April 6 I am picking up package bees to start 2 more hives, and I have done a hive rescue so it it makes it through the winter I will end up with 6 hives. This is my first winter as a beekeeper and I consider myself pretty lucky. I went with local bees, the BeeWeaver Navasota facility is 1.5 hour drive and I am very happy with them. Here is a short video of 2 of my foundationsless frames from my first hive.
http://youtu.be/3_uFntBZDWU
 
#30 ·
I would vote Nucs. What value would you put on drawn comb? I put a lot!!! And when comparing a $95 package to a $125 nuc you are saving $10 by not buying frames (not to mention they are drawn and full of brood, pollen, and honey) That puts the price difference down to $20 each. Now figure a lot of the people I know that buy packages are frantically looking for a queen in late April-May because theirs is a dud or has been superseded. (Yes, some package suppliers are better then others) So there you are shelling out $20 bucks for a queen. Your $95 package has now cost you $125 and you have missed the honey flow, because your dud queen didn't build up. Some sell nucs for as little as $110!!! I know, what a deal!!!

I agree it all depends on where you get the nucs and packages from. Queens bought in the spring for nucs should be laying for weeks before they are sold, not days!!! Queens caged in packages have layed for 4 to 6 days (if that) before they are shoved in a package and shipped across the country.

I keep a lot of the nucs I produce for personal use and I sometimes split them in early May! :D Split a package in early May? Not in Ohio.
 
#34 ·
Ace:
The initial investment to sell packages is fairly high. Where do you think they get the cans of HFCS? They buy the HFCS by the tractor trailer load and run it through a canning facility on site.
So on top of operating 1000s of hives, they need to be able to raise queens and have them mated when they need them. They have to have a fully functional cannery. A fully functional woodworking operation to build the packages and make the queen cages etc... and they do it by the 1000s. many of the producers are putting out 20-50 K packages per year.

I guess you could shake 3 # of bees into a used cage and put a can of tomato soup in it... but why do that for 90 bucks when somebody will pay you 125 for a crappy nuc :D
 
#35 ·
I am not saying that they both don't have their place. Just that Value for Value the package is a better value.... A nuc is the only real way for a hobby beek/sideliner to make any money selling bees. To produce packages you need to be located in a location that is suitable for it and be set up to do so.

Not everybody wants to buy bees from a commercial operation, some people like meeting face to face with the producer, seeing their hives and seeing how they do things... That might be worth the extra money to somebody... but the other advertised benefits of a Nuc generally are not true due to variability of the product... There is no definition of what is a sale worthy nuc, yet the prices are pretty consistent.

MP said that a package installed on May 1st and a nuc installed on may 1st isn't the same and with that I will agree... But in his area it is unlikely you could get a nuc on may 1st anyway... may 15th is more like it... I can install a package the first week of April if I like, and it will likely be farther along than the nuc on May 1st... providing a person could get one.
 
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