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Nucs versus Packages?

29K views 89 replies 41 participants last post by  bluegrass 
#1 ·
I know, an age old question and it certainly depends upon the person and the goals of their apiary.

I am growing my beeyard from 3 to 20 this year and I wanted to get some opinions on one versus the other.
 
#36 ·
Think the NUC is going to outperform the package. One would have to buy the NUC from a reputable supplier and get a young queen(last years or a purchased mated queen) and healthy bees, May well be getting more bees with NUC.

First eggs I saw with a package on blank foundation was the eighth day. No emerging bees then until 28th if the package arrived May 1.

The NUC will have emerging bees on May 15, so it has a two week jump.

I started a NUC on May 18 last year with a purchased mated queen and it became four deeps and a medium. Harvested one deep super and one medium for 80lbs of honey. Did no sugar syrup feeding. And by fall it was boiling with bees.

To get a package to achieve the same and from my experience 80 lbs is doable, one would have to feed sugar syrup for a couple of months and then be concerned about enough winter stores, so some more sugar likely.
 
#60 ·
I guess the main thing beekeepers, new or old who buy nucs need to make sure they are looking before they buy and asking questions. A good nuc is what everyone wants but like so many others have said sometimes people just throw something together with a queen and call it a nuc. I have bought a nuc before as a rookie beekeeper didn't know exactly what to ask or look for and got very old dark comb and about half wax and half plastic foundation. Good nucs are a great value if that's what they are, .....Major
The vast differences in the quality of Nucs from different suppliers is the reason I started a thread last year: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268893-f)-Is-there-a-standard-for-nucs

I found it very interesting the see the wide variety of ideas and ethics displayed by the various vendors. As Major said above, make sure to look carefully and ask questions BEFORE you buy.

We are teaching our newbees how to ask questions this year before paying for the nuc. And which questions to ask. So many were cheated last year......very sad.
 
#61 ·
The vast differences in the quality of Nucs from different suppliers is the reason I started a thread last year: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268893-f)-Is-there-a-standard-for-nucs

I found it very interesting the see the wide variety of ideas and ethics displayed by the various vendors. As Major said above, make sure to look carefully and ask questions BEFORE you buy.

We are teaching our newbees how to ask questions this year before paying for the nuc. And which questions to ask. So many were cheated last year......very sad.
Often the "Cheated" isn't intentional. I will give an example of a situation I ran into once when buying nucs. I purchased from a reputable person and paid for them in the winter like is often the case. A couple of weeks before they were due to pick up I got a phone call that they would be ready on a specific date. The day of pickup I was not able to pick them up because of another obligation... About 3-4 days later I went to pick up the nucs and everything had been picked over by other customers. All that was left was a handful of really lousy nucs.

At that point what do you do? If I had been able to pick up on time I would have had the pick of the litter. A nuc is a functional hive in every aspect except size. Just like the best beeks in the world will have some weak hives and some good hives and some really strong hives, the same is true for nucs. When making nucs up we estimate what we will have available to sell... once you collect someones money you really can't call them up and tell them that you can't give them what they ordered.

In the ideal world money would not be collected until the customer picked up the order, but that isn't always possible and frequently if you want bees you have to pay ahead.

The other issue for new beeks is often they are unwilling to actually inspect a nuc and even if they did, they would not know what they are looking at. They are just so happy to have a box with bees it in that they would not even see the flaws with their particular box.
 
#40 · (Edited)
Bluegrass... I will insert one down side to package vrs nucs. In a package you get a wire cage you can throw away. In a nuc you get either a reusable nuc for a swarm box or splits, (in my nucs you get a box jointed, detachable bottom board, feeder top, wooden nuc,) or, you get a cardboard nuc that can be reused to split a hive.

You made a very good cost/benefit analysis, (Very good). but, at the very least, the value of the nuc should be included, and subtracted from the difference quoted.

cchoganjr
 
#42 ·
Cleo when you sell nucs do you include the box, top and bottom? I include the frames in mine, but the box is 20.00 extra. I thought that was pretty standard.

On the cage... there is actually a deposit on it that is refundable if you get it back to your supplier.
 
#46 · (Edited)
bluegrass.... Actually I sell a variety of ways, but first, keep in mind that I am a small peanut in the world of nucs. I only program to sell 100 each year. I am almost sold out for this year. I think I only have 5 more available.

If I sell a nuc, yes, the nuc will have 2 or 3 frames of brood, two additional frames of bees, honey, pollen, new queen already laying, and the nuc is a box jointed nuc, with detachable bottom board, and top. I also sell transfers, where I transfer 5 frames into customer equipment. I also sell 5 frame nucs in 10 frame equipment. In this case the customer gets the 5 nuc frames, plus 5 additional frames with foundation. All 10 frame equipment, including bottom board, deep brood chamber, inner cover, top.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that there was a refundable deposit on the wire cages. Obviously, I haven't bought any packages in years and years, but I didn't think Kelly gave anything back for the cage. I will have to check on this just for info.

Here is a photo of what the nucs look like.

Wood Hardwood Tan Plywood Design


Here is a photo of the Nucs on the stands, waiting for customer pick-up.

Green Plant community Land lot Grassland Gas


This photo shows 5 and 10 frame nucs waiting for customer pick-up.

Blue Plant Plant community Land lot Grassland


cchoganjr
 
#48 ·
Major... After a Nuc seller has been in business for a few years, his/her customers will get virtually new frames because I have to replace the 5 frames I took out for the Nuc with 5 new frames with foundation in the brood stock. And you are right, a GOOD Nuc seller will stay in business because he/she sells a quality product. Fly-by-Nights will drop by the wayside.

Bluegrass...I can't do math. You got me there.

Adrian Quiney WI...Those stands are the plastic tubs that cattle mineral comes in, from Southern States. They are free for the taking. Yes they are selected because they are at a comfortable height for the Nucs, and they are free. The tubs will support perhaps 2 deep and 1 shallow, but not much more. They would not be good for honey hive stands where you have several boxes. My brood stock is on metal pipe stands, like these two photos.

Property Natural landscape Plain Plant community Land lot


Wood Natural environment Property Plant community Land lot


cchoganjr
 
#49 ·
Major... After a Nuc seller has been in business for a few years, his/her customers will get virtually new frames because I have to replace the 5 frames I took out for the Nuc with 5 new frames with foundation in the brood stock. And you are right, a GOOD Nuc seller will stay in business because he/she sells a quality product. Fly-by-Nights will drop by the wayside.

Bluegrass...I can't do math. You got me there.

Adrian Quiney WI...Those stands are the plastic tubs that cattle mineral comes in, from Southern States. They are free for the taking. Yes they are selected because they are at a comfortable height for the Nucs, and they are free. The tubs will support perhaps 2 deep and 1 shallow, but not much more. They would not be good for honey hive stands where you have several boxes. My brood stock is on metal pipe stands, like these two photos.

View attachment 3922

View attachment 3923

cchoganjr
nice !
 
#51 · (Edited)
oldforte....Couldn't you also get mites with your package bees? I would chalk that one up to the supplier, rather than nuc vrs package. If your nuc supplier is selling nucs with heavy mite loads, he/she won't be selling nucs very long. People will not come back, and the word will get out. Same with packages.

Ever get a package that contains a queen with the bees, and one in the cage. It happens, if they don't find the queen when making up the packages, or there were virgin queens as a result of swarming when they made up the packages. Which one survives, and does she get damaged.

Ever order more than one package and have one or more drift so badly that one or more could not survive. If so you are out the cost of a package.

There are advantages and disadvantages with both. Good conversation and analysis on this thread. Thanks everyone.

I recommend a buyer do his/her homework and choose whichever one will work best for you.

cchoganjr
 
#52 ·
I started beekeeping with both a package and then a nuc last year. I experienced some pros and cons with both.

The first package came with most of the bees drowned from too big holes in the syrup can. The seller didn't give me any problem and replaced the package but it meant I got a very late start (which really mattered last year with an early spring and then summer drought). The queen that came with the package was not much of a layer and by time I replaced her it might have been too late. The bees went into winter with a fairly small cluster and I am not sure they will make it (I already ordered a replacement package just in case).

The nuc I purchased for pickup in late summer and while they are great bees, it came with SHB and wax worms. The bees and I fought those but because of the SHB I had a hard time giving them pollen supplement (which they were low on and needed to raise brood) and they too went into winter with a small cluster. I am not sure this hive will make it through winter either but they seem to be doing well so far. Better than the package, but these bees were supposed to have great genetics so I am hoping they show it and survive.

This year, to avoid having the same issues with the package I found a producer in my state and will drive to pick up the bees.
 
#54 ·
Kelley may not give the deposit back, but their supplier probably would if they were willing to store them and give them back to them. The deposit is only 1.50 this year so for somebody who only buys a few packages it probably isn't worth returning them, but some of my larger customers return them and I take them back. The deposit is worked into the price so most people don't know it is there.

If a customer contacts me within two weeks of getting a package and need a replacement queen I send them one. All the package producers I have worked with have sent extras with the load in case of failed queens. Except in 2010 because they didn't have extra's available. Last year I had nearly 30 queens left over...

Yes you can get mites with a package, but there isn't extra brood for a second generation of mites in with the package ;) Also there was a study in 97 I think about foul brood in Nucs... They were comparing why it wasn't a problem with package bees and their results indicated that the shaken out bees did not have enough spores in them to infect a newly established hive, where the brood from a nuc did.. I will try and find that source.

Cleo: Wish I had the opportunity to meet you while I was still in KY... Looks like I moved out about the time you joined the forum... Your reputation had preceded you though :)
 
#58 · (Edited)
Bluegrass...Yes, I know about the reduction of mites in packages. And that is a plus for a package. AFB is also an increased possibility with the nucs, and reduced with packages. Guess the new beekeeper just needs to weigh their options and then decide which will work best for them.

I can see why the small beekeeper would not fool with the deposit,($1.50). But, if you were buying 500 packages that would be $750.00, and that is significant. I learn something every day. I didn't know there was a deposit on packages. I am just a very small peanut in the world of bees and Nucs.

Colleen O ..... Small hive beetles are certainly a problem with Nucs, and to a lesser degree packages, (but, it is there also), only good management practices will take care of this problem. As for Wax worms, that is an indication that the nuc was not strong. You will not get wax worms unless your nuc/hive is weak. This would not be your fault, as the producer should not be splitting a hive that is weak enough to have a wax worm problem. You won't get wax worms with strong nucs or strong hives. It is amazing how many problems can be traced to weak hives. Keep your nucs/hives strong, don't give them excessive wax that they cannot guard.

As for supercedure.... Every year I get numerous calls from all over the country, about people seeing queen cells in nucs they have purchased. This is totally natural. If a nuc is made up in Georgia and a new queen placed in the nuc in a cage, then trucked to Illinois, the bees realize very quickly that they do not have a queen that is laying for them and they take matters into their own hands, and start queen cells to insure their survivability. They only have a limited number of days to do this until there are no viable eggs left to make a queen. If the new queen gets out of the cage and starts laying, the bees will take care of those queen cells before they emerge. Ideal situation is to have the queen laying before they are delivered to the customers.

I think I joined the Forum in 2010. I retired from the Army in 1978 and I said I did not want anything to do with computers, but, in 1995 I realized that I should stay up with the World. I had not heard of the Forum until Kelly asked me to answer some questions for them. Glad I found it. Barry does a great job on this site. There are a World of GREAT people on this site.

I learn something new, virtually every day. I learn something, even if a post is not totally accurate or filled with bias. As they say in Intelligence Gathering, "A lie, when you know it is a lie, is often just as valuable as the truth". (Don't know who made that comment).

If you, or anyone else are ever in Kentucky, around Exit 48 on Ky. I-65, Mammoth Cave Kentucky, you are welcome to contact me and I will be happy to show you my little operation, talk about bees.

Everybody, Have a great day.

cchoganjr
 
#59 ·
Cleo: Just out of curiosity what is your price difference between a nuc where you transfer into the customer's box and one where they get the nuc box.

Last year my nucs were 125.00 plus 20.00 for the box if they needed it. I only had one person take my boxes and pay the deposit on them, he has not returned them. Everybody else did a transfer like you mentioned above for the 125.00 price.

Thanks for the invitation, if I ever get back down that way I will contact you.

No need to be good at math really.
A deep sheet of foundation is mechanically printed with a consistent cell size, so you just count the cells in a square inch (24) and multiply by the size of the sheet. A sheet is 16 3/4x8 so 134 sq inches per sheet. That gives you about 3300 which you multiply by 2 to account for both sides of a comb.

The weight of the average worker bee you can just ask your smart phone or google and I get an answer of 90 mg. So convert mg to grams and you get 11 bees per gram and grams to lbs to get 5044 bees per lb. So one deep frame of brood will hatch out about a lb of bees... Of course that does not take the honey along the edges into account.
 
#63 · (Edited)
bluegrass...others..... Since I am basicall already sold out for the year, maybe beesource won't think I am advertising, so here are my prices.

Nuc transfer..Normally, 3 frames brood, 2 frames of bees, pollen, honey, new queen, $95.00

5 frame nuc in a 5 frame wooden nuc, same bees as above, the nuc is a box jointed nuc, detachable bottom board and migratory top $125.00 I posted a photo of them somewhere on this site.

5 frame nuc in 10 frame equipment. Same bees as above, plus 10 frame bottom board, deep hive body, inner cover, top, $150.00

Please keep in mind that I am not making a living from my bees, and I am a small peanut compared to those who sell nucs. I am retired, and I enjoy helping people who want to get started in beekeeping. My prices are in line with the commercial sellers, perhaps just a little less for this area. I only sell 100 nucs each year, then I am done for the year. I do have a 100 % guarantee on my nucs, If the custormer is not happy I will refund, or replace, no questions asked. I know there are some on here who have bought from me over the years.

I make all the woodenware, except inner covers and frames. I don't use inner covers myself, so I buy those already assembled from Kelly Bee. The woodenware I sell is all new, painted white. The frames are virtually new, because they were likely put in the brood stock hives last year to replace frames I sold as nucs. A major portion of my wood is free as I have contacts with building contractors who give me cutoffs for a little honey. The remainder I buy from the Amish, and they pick my wood and give me a GREAT deal, and in return, I put 25-40 single chamber hives in their pumpkin patches.

This is how I am spending my retirement years. I go to a lot of schools, bee clubs, Ky State Parks, and put on bee demonstrations. I am at the end of my beekeeping, and I sure would like to see younger ones take it up.

Thanks for the math, Bluegrass. I could figure it out from your post, but I am just going to take it as true. If it wasn't true, you wouldn't post it. I enjoy your posts.

Hope this has been helpful to someone wanting to get into selling nucs. There is plenty of room out there for anyone who would like to get in the business. There is more money, easier, in selling bees, than selling honey. Keep three things in mind when selling nucs, 1. Quality. 2. Quality. 3. Quality.

cchoganjr
 
#67 ·
Bluegrass...I could not do that to my customers. I appreciate the offer, and would not need a certified check. I have never been stiffed on a bee sale. Most of my customers are repeats and someone who recommended me. I have never advertised and I am normally sold out by mid January and don't start making nucs until April.

You are absolutely correct. I and most others who put together quality nucs, can sell all they make, It is just a sideline for me. A good way to spend my retirement years, get more people into bees, meet some GREAT people, and I really enjoy the woodworking in the Winter.

Kelly Bee Company got me started several years ago by sending people to me, after they sold out. They sell thousands and still sell out early. I can always tell when Kelly sells out. Unfortunately by that time, I am also. There is a big demand right now. Don't know how long the craze will last, but it has been with us for a while. Only a couple or three others in the area who sell nucs, and they only sell like 10-15 per year. I met with a young man last week from Scottsville, and he is seriously thinking big. I told him everything I knew about selling nucs. He already has his queen raising well underway. He is likely going to keep his day job, and expand a little at a time.

cchoganjr
 
#68 ·
Cleo, I posted on another thread about a non profit asking me to whip out some nuc boxes for them. They said the local suppler was at $39 unassembled for finger joint boxes and $21 for rabbet jointed. I had to ask him twice. Figure a buck for foundation, one for frame and $30 for a queen he could almost buy nucs from you and be ahead of the game!
Retired Army, that’s too bad….go Navy!
Back on subject the in laws got one package and one nuc, same store. Put them in two new hives second week of April. End of June the package had drawn two boxes, nuc only had 8 in the bottom box and the 2 frames from below trying to bait them up.
 
#70 · (Edited)
minz... I know that is true, But, next year or next week you might find the results reversed. There are so many factors on which will be the best after 30 or 60 days or one year. There is certainly no one answer.

I get $30.00 for an empty 5 frame, box jointed nuc painted white. That is pretty standard for the area, except for assembly and paint. As I said, the way I can sell cheaper than some is I get most of my wood for free, well, almost free, I give them a jar or two of honey.

I guess our suppliers don't get as much around here as in other areas. I have heard of a company over near London, Ky that sells box jointed nucs for $20.00 unassembled. They say very nice nucs. I just looked up Kelly Bee Company, and they get$137.50 for a complete 5 frame wooden nuc with bees and Carniolian queen. I couldn't find that they sell just wood nucs. Better Bee gets, $30.95 for an assembled 5 frame wooden nuc, not painted.

Zhiv9... I just read the Ontario Bee Nuc Defination. It is good.

I love the Navy, As a Company Commander in Vietnam in 1968, the New Jersey fired for me at Hue, and I regularily got fighters off the carriers in the Gulf, and I can never say enough about The USS Sanctuary and The USS Repose, hospital ships, that took care of the wounded. So I also say, Go Navy. Thank You Guys.

cchoganjr
 
#71 ·
I am not bran new at this but if I were going to buy a nuc this spring I don’t know if I would want to pull apart a bunch of frames and look at it for fear of losing a bunch of field bees. I open up a hive here in the cold, wet spring they typically are coming at me in a hurry. About a month ago I popped a lid and had 10 stingers in my glove before I got the lid off. Not a real common issue but an issue all the same.
How do you do a nuc inspection at the purchaser and not leave a lb. Of bees at his place to check the items listed by Zhive9?
Cleo, did all my time on an aircraft carrier. We got attacked by the most powerful navy on earth one night. Holy crap did we burn. I could not imagine what damage those guys could do to us if they were serious! I would bet you seen your share of incoming ‘friendly’.
 
#72 ·
How do you do a nuc inspection at the purchaser and not leave a lb. Of bees at his place to check the items listed by Zhive9?
Quickly and carefully. Know your supplier and trust him a bit or open it up at his shop in the late afternoon so it goes dusk before you put it in your truck just like you would move a hive. There is really no way tell them to stay in the box.
 
#73 ·
I don't worry about the field bees. I will open and inspect a nuc any time of day. As long as it has plenty of brood, plenty of stores and plenty of hive bees any bees that are out in the field are at the end of their life expectancy anyway. There are plenty of bees in the nuc who are 21 days old the day after you pick it up...and they graduate to field bees.
 
#74 · (Edited)
I don't worry about the field bees. I will open and inspect a nuc any time of day
I agree. Most of my customers don't open them, so they get all the bees. I tell them if they are not happy when they get home, just let me know, I will replace or refund. I have never had a complaint.

I close the nuc off with screen, before daylight, on day of pick-up in order to get all the bees but, if they want to open and inspect and you lose a few field bees, and 50 guard bees, it will not significantly weaken your nuc, if it was a good strong nuc.

minz.. Believe me, there is nothing friendly about incoming.

cchoganjr
 
#80 ·
By the time you pay for a package (minus a queen) plus a nuc, you likely have about $200 (likely more) invested in bees for just one hive. When you apply that to two hives, you probably have close to $450 for just bees for two hives. :eek:

And if you were considering just populating one hive, you will be taking much higher risk than if you populated 2 hives. With two hives, you can borrow resources from one to diagnose and fix problems with the other. If you only have one, you are stuck.

:ws:
 
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