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something to think about

51K views 163 replies 33 participants last post by  squarepeg 
#1 ·
a concern from pro-treatment beekeepers i have seen a few times on this board was that if you try to be treatment free anywhere near other beekeepers or close to the city limits, you will be spreading disease to other people's beehives and this could end with forcing them to use more treatments than before and worst case scenario their bee colonies will die.

to me this sounds like a kind of unfair disadvantage to rebel beekeepers should someone successfully raise treatment free colonies. it means that even if your bees are treatment free and thriving, people would still want you to spray to prevent spreading bee diseases, meaning your own stock will be weakened and eventually no more resistant than anyone else's. does that sound right?
 
#39 ·
Fair enough.

However I'm not a slave to the unique forum rules. Reason being, if the bees require the pest lifecycle to be interupted by the beekeeper to ensure their survival, then they are not, to my mind, truely treatment free bees.

For example, I have been able to virtually eradicate mites from an infested hive, by removing two complete consecutive brood cycles. The bees in question were in no way varroa tolerant. But by the rules of this forum, the hive was run treatment free. Would I then sell these bees as treatment free bees? Of course not.
 
#41 ·
i believe the 'unique forum rules' are part of the cause for some of the 'us and them' dynamics that have plagued the discussions here.

the problem is that there is no uniformly agreed upon definition of 'treatment free'.

steveng, who has the honor and distinction have having the sticky thread 'no treatment of honey bees' on the main bee forum, is not considered treatment free by the 'unique forum rules' because he has used 'honey bee healthy'.

since barry has taken over as moderator of the tf forum, there has been open and spirited discussion about the issues that are important to all beekeepers. i think it's wrong to arbitrarily divide this community and restrict this flow of discussion.

we can all learn from each other, there's no us or them, it's we beekeepers!

i make a motion to abolish the 'unique forum rules' on the tf forum.

do i hear a second?
 
#44 ·
Yes I wasn't intending to re-start negotiations over the forum rules LOL! Just threw some of my own thoughts out there.

Not everybody including me, will fully agree with the forum rules. But not everybody agrees with the road rules either. But once they are in place it provides a framework to make things go smoothly. Some fun poking may occur from time to time though. :)
 
#45 ·
well, for one thing, i guess it's hard to discuss not treating, without discussing what it is about treating that is the reason you are not treating.

the rules strictly forbid any mention of treatments.

barry has relaxed this restriction through moderation.

hasn't it been much better since?
 
#48 ·
As much as I do not consider myself a TF Beekeeper, at heart I hope that people who work TF will one day come up with either a bee or methodology that can thrive and either produce surplus honey or do well in a commercial migratory setting. And that these bees and/or methodologies become generally available. It is the same reason that I belong to an organic group even though i don't buy into the organic movement whole hog. So I am not in favor of any changes to the unique forum rules, especially if people who want to keep bees without adding anything to a hive that isn't already there have to read posts advocating treatments. The forum ought to be a refuge from that.

I am delighted to read posts describing beekeeper obligations to keep healthy hives irregardless of the methodologies they choose to use. I think this is an important topic, although I recognize that it may very well force the lone wolf type beekeeper to be more social. Or to at least have cognizance over how their bees might affect other nearby bees.
 
#49 ·
i wasn't here before the rules, but i'll take your word for it barry.

if it was worse before, than the rules were needed.

it is going well now with your oversight, and i'm happy.

put it to rest it is, i withdraw the motion.
 
#50 ·
Best I can tell, most kept colonies in my area are fed in the mid summer, and treated for mites in the fall.

Assuming that feeding attracts robbing, and that if the colony is going to require treatments in the fall, that it has a growing (significant) mite population in the mid summer (I think these are reasonable assumptions)...then it is hard not to think of these colonies as significant sources of mite infestations.

It's hard for me to believe that feeding isn't the biggest way that robbing is encouraged and disease spread.

deknow
 
#52 ·
It's hard for me to believe that feeding isn't the biggest way that robbing is encouraged and disease spread. deknow
I would say more likely, weak colonies in a dearth of nectar is what causes robbing. You can leave honey exposed in the apiary or spill syrup all over the ground, when there's a flow on. Not when there's a dearth.

You can also feed syrup intelligently and not cause any robbing at all.
 
#51 · (Edited)
that makes sense dean. i think that some of the folks around here feed during the summer dearth, not sure about mite treatments.

interestingly, my bees consumed only a small portion of the stores i left them after the spring harvest, and put on enough weight with the fall flow for me to harvest some more in september.

the two concerns i have with summer feeding are:

1. the compromised nutrtion, i'm banking on fewer problems with diseases and pests with the healthier honey only diet.

2. not wanting to simulate a 'flow' when there isn't one. i want bees that are good at brooding up and down in relationship with the natural availibilty of forage.

you've given me a 3 to consider, thanks.
 
#53 ·
Dean: Cerainly feeding is a method by which disease can be spread. It's also highly preventable by any vigilant beekeeper. Small hives incapable of taking feed should not be fed. Neatness must always be stressed when there is a dearth and no feeding job is complete in a good operation without a walk through when you are done checking entrances for syrup and looking for any initial signs of robbing.
 
#55 ·
>Surely, a hive that has died of disease will be more likely to both, get robbed, and secondly, spread disease, than a healthy hive that's been fed?

Most of my robbing problems happen when I feed... I have no experience that would indicate that feeding in any way PREVENTS robbing...
 
#70 ·
Most of my robbing problems happen when I feed...
the one case of robbing that i had in 2012 was of a colony that wasn't being fed, but rather declined due to queenlessness, and had too much space to defend.

it was an overwintered four frame nuc that built up nicely in the spring, swarmed, and failed to get a mated queen after the swarm.

my novice mistake was to give it a frame of eggs from one of my best hives to make an emergency queen from, which they did successfully, and i had a beautiful laying queen one month later.

the problem was that the population had dwindled, and i didn't remove any boxes. when that first round of brood came on what few bees were left in the hive got too busy nursing the brood, and there were not enough bees to guard the stores.

the other hives in the yard had really grown by then, and we were also nearing the end of our spring flow. needless to say, the dwindled hive was an easy target.

luckily, i was home that day and saw the robbing just as it was getting started. i immediately closed them up, and moved them to my out yard that only had a few smaller hives in it.(

that didn't work, because when i got to the outyard the next day, the smaller hives there had already taken to robbing the dwindled one.

i move them to a third yard where there were no other hives. virtually all of the honey was gone. i removed and kept the two drawn mediums of comb for use with other hives, and i put a feeder on them.

luckily, the queen was not killed in the dwindled hive, and i sold it to a newbee with the understanding that it would have to be fed until the fall flow, which it was, and there was no further robbing.

this colony is in great shape now, and will likely be an outstanding honey producer this year.

as far as feeding goes, the only other colony that i had to give syrup to last year was a late swarm that needed a little help getting started. i made sure i didn't use anything scented in the syrup, added vitamin c, and it did fine in my main yard along with the other strong hives, and there was no robbing.

i am wondering michael, if it might be better to use plain unscented syrup for emergency feeding, as opposed to honey. the smell of open honey (assuming it's in a feeder and not capped in comb) might be enough to encourage robbing whereas plain unscented syrup might not.

any thoughts?
 
#56 ·
>Most of my robbing problems happen when I feed...

since you don't usually feed, could it be that the robbing problem happened mostly because the colony was weak enough to require feeding in the first place, and not so much because it was being fed?

a common theme for minimizing losses seems to be keeping colonies strong, and not letting them dwindle too far.
 
#57 ·
....so, all fed hives are healthy? They don't harbor diseases and/or parasites that the beekeeper is applying miticides, antibiotics, etc to control (treatments for diseases/parasites that the beekeeper assumes will kill the colony if they aren't applied)?

I'm also sure all post feeding robbing happens immediately post feeding, and that a beekeeper with many yards can prevent feed related robbing by cleaning up....and that robbing never happens the next day when the beekeeper isn't present....right?.....because beekeepers are never feeding in a dearth....right?

Using fumidil increases modems spore production. Using antibiotics for afb prevention hides afb symptoms so it can be unknowingly spread.

Beekeepers always pull their honey Supers and treat for mites immediately when they have an issue, rather than waiting for the flow to be over and harvested so that they dont infest their neighbors....right?

Let's talk about what beekeepers actually do rather than what they should do. If drifting and disease spread is an issue, then let's discuss how to prevent them.

Deknow
 
#59 ·
Let's talk about what beekeepers actually do rather than what they should do. If drifting and disease spread is an issue, then let's discuss how to prevent them.
Deknow
If your point is that sloppy beekeeping practices spread disease then I dont think you are exactly breaking any new ground with that position. Like most things in beekeeping and in life you can do it well or you can do it poorly. I would hope the inexperienced beekeeper looking for guidance on this subject dosent conclude that feeding in general is a bad thing because they read that it spreads disease. The next thread I'm likely to see is someone posting a video of weak quivering bees and wondering if they contracted some kind of disease.
 
#58 ·
deknow;881828 Let's talk about what beekeepers actually do rather than what they should do. If drifting and disease spread is an issue said:
Okay, let's.

You know I feed thick syrup to my bees if and when they need feed. I feed with gallon cans, directly on the bees. Any drip is sucked up immediately, and doesn't run across the inner cover and out the front side of the hive. I make sure the cans don't leak and the syrup run out of the bottom entrance. Extra precautions must be taken when feeding weak colonies in a strong apiary. You know I do that, too, with all the nucs I have in production yards.

Think about my cell building yard. 30 of the strongest colonies you ever did see..actually Dean, stronger than any colonies you've ever seen. On the other side of the yard, 60 nucleus colonies.

During the active cell building season, I have 8 cell builders being fed thin syrup. I may have some of the nucleus colonies being fed at the same time. Allowing robbing to get started would spell disaster. How do I know? I've carelessley allowed it to happen. My fault...operator error. Once started, the bees don't forget. They're always waiting for me when I return to the yard.

But, it's not the act of feeding that gets them robbing, it's operator error, allowing syrup feeders to leak, using hive top feeders that aren't bee tight, not reducing entrances when appropriate, spilling syrup on the ground, and/or leaving combs with nectar exposed for even a few moments. But does feeding in one apiary cause robbing in a neighboring apiary? I guess that would depend on the neighboring apiary...how close it is.

>>If drifting and disease spread is an issue, then let's discuss how to prevent them.<<

Okay, again, let's. I manage my apiary as best as I know how. I keep my bees strong, my entrances sized correctly. I manage my varroa load. I breed stocks to hopefully tolerate nosema...at least I don't let my bees crash and leave them open to robbing. I unite colonies that are too weak to defend themselves. I give brood from nucleus colonies to boost populations. I haven't treated with antibiotics in years, but do treat for varroa, period, as you know.

Am I perfect? Do I have issues ocassionally? Certainly, same as anyone does. Would I let an apiary crash to the point of being robbed by the neighborhood bees of other keepers. Not if I can help it.

So, let's do discuss how to prevent drifting and disease spread in the neighborhood. What exactly should I be doing to prevent the OTHER beekeepers' bees from crashing and being robbed by mine? 30-40 Krag? Commando Raid? Help from the State inspection service...yeah right.

I'm on my own Dean. All I can do is keep my bees as strong and healthy as I am able. All I can do is give presentations at local clubs, and offer advice to all the new beekeepers out there. You know I do. But you tell me. How do I protect my operation from sloppy beekeepers, or those wishing to be treatment free beekeepers...when they do nothing but not treat.

They do nothing for stock improvement. They don't know what IPM is. The continue to buy sick package bees from the same dealers...those too often on the club's boards and promoting the exclusive use of package bees...picked up at their facility.

Now, you buy package bees from Georgia, and allow them to die for whatever reason. I know you're attempting a breeding program and a small cell and natural cell foundationless system. I'm not criticizing that. But, don't they get robbed by the neighborhood bees when they die? Isn't there a good chance that whatever parasites and pathogens that killed them would now be in your neighbor's bees?

So, considering that I have 36 commercial apiaries to protect, counting all the production colonies and nucleus colonies the numbers are well over a thousand, what would you do.

That's my take, what's yours?
 
#68 ·
>since you don't usually feed, could it be that the robbing problem happened mostly because the colony was weak enough to require feeding in the first place, and not so much because it was being fed?

I don't feed because they are weak. I never feed a weak hive. I steal capped stores from the strong for a weak hive. I only feed because they are going to starve if I don't.

>a common theme for minimizing losses seems to be keeping colonies strong, and not letting them dwindle too far.

The longer I keep bees the more I see "strong" as a matter of bee density, not size. A colony that has too much room for too few bees is what dwindles... An awful lot of beekeeping is managing space.
 
#69 ·
fully understood michael, i am following you and the others who prescribe to a honey only if possible diet for my bees.

i'll rephrase, do you feel the robbing that you see associated with giving a weak hive honey is more because the hive is weak, or more because you gave it honey, or a combination of both?

would a strong hive given honey be as likely to succumb to robbing?

is it better to avoid letting colonies dwindle in the first place? (per your definition of providing them with the appropriate cavity size).
 
#72 ·
zzzzzzzz :sleep:

let's spend all of that quality time and knowledge and willing to share it, and with that energy share actual experiences.

beekeeping is local, and unique to each beekeeper, each of whom is free to pursue their goals, reap their harvests, and doing so with husbundry and as to not be a threat to other nearby populations of bees and other pollinators.
 
#73 ·
Well, I'm glad that we can all agree that moving 2/3 or 3/4 of the bees in this country to the almonds at the same time every year, then moving those colonies around the country to interface with kept and wild honeybees as well as other pollinators poses no "threat" to beekeepers or the environment, RIGHT?

...and don't misread this. Every action we take has risks and benefits. As I said before, if we want to talk about what causes robbing, the spread of disease, etc, lets have at it. ...but if the pretense is that what some people do is ok and shouldn't be examined in this context (feeding, moving bees, breeding from susceptible stock, open feeding, medication) and what some other people do isn't ok and should be examined in this context, then you are welcome to have the conversation without my input.
There are some interesting and complex issues to discuss here, but such discussion can't be had in the environment we have here.

deknow
 
#74 ·
>i'll rephrase, do you feel the robbing that you see associated with giving a weak hive honey is more because the hive is weak, or more because you gave it honey, or a combination of both?

A combination of both, of course. A strong hive is always better at defending itself. Honey has a very attractive odor to bees as has been documented for hundreds of years. Far more so than sugar syrup.

>would a strong hive given honey be as likely to succumb to robbing?

Of course not.

>is it better to avoid letting colonies dwindle in the first place? (per your definition of providing them with the appropriate cavity size).

Of course.

>i am wondering michael, if it might be better to use plain unscented syrup for emergency feeding, as opposed to honey. the smell of open honey (assuming it's in a feeder and not capped in comb) might be enough to encourage robbing whereas plain unscented syrup might not.

I never feed honey to a weak hive. I do feed unscented syrup sometimes when I don't have capped honey to give them. Open honey in a weak hive is an invitation to robbing. But so is the syrup, just less so. So capped honey is what I would prefer all the way around. That means a lot of managing bees so they don't need to be fed is a matter of always having capped stores on hives as a resource you can use rather than harvesting as much as possible.
 
#78 ·
I think we all can agree that robbing spreads disease, that sloppy beekeeping practices which run the gamut from leaving an unattended frame out to switching diseased frames between hives to failing to reduce cavity or entrance size in a small hive all the way to sloppy feeding practices can all lead to robbing. All these things are easily avoidable with prudent beekeeping practices. I consider it among the least of my problems. I am not sure there is much more I can add.
 
#83 ·
Barry, I think he was implying that I am a bumbling fool because I don't make a living with my bees...and that commercial beekeepers do. The other statements of mine that he "paraphrased" are "factually challenged".

Deknow
 
#84 ·
Anyway, it was the original post that interested me ignoring most of the last several pages I'll respond to that.

<to me this sounds like a kind of unfair disadvantage to rebel beekeepers should someone successfully raise treatment free colonies. it means that even if your bees are treatment free and thriving, people would still want you to spray to prevent spreading bee diseases, meaning your own stock will be weakened and eventually no more resistant than anyone else's. does that sound right? >

If you have thriving bees that would indicate to me that they don't have any major pests or diseases to spread. On a small scale it is doubtful that you will actually generate stock that is any different than anything around you. Since barring instrumental insemination your stock will be breeding with everything around you unless you have sufficient isolation or colonies to flood the area. If you are purchasing stock to bring in resistance you will have to continue to do so because of the aforementioned reasons.

I'm trying russians this year and setting up a separate yard for them, I am aware however that I will have to continually buy queens each year in order to keep pure russian stock because I simply don't have enough hives to breed them myself. Stock selection is an admirable goal, but don't expect to make any lasting gains unless your hive total numbers in the hundreds. I've run into lots of very small bee keepers hoping to do breed a better bee, though it's true they will add to the gene pool it's not likely they will have any significant impact. It's a hard fact to swallow for some /shrug.
 
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