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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,664

    Default Re: something to think about

    very interesting.

    isolated 'em after you measured more than 3 per 100 eh?

    and only one if four years, sounds like you have some pretty good bees there.

    in that one hive with the bigger load, did you notice any other problems? was it weaker in numbers than your others, not drawing as much comb, not storing as much honey? any sick brood?

    i have a lot of 'feral' unmanaged colonies all around my area, (my county is 68% wooded), so i don't have any place i would feel comfortable removing an infested colony to.

    that is why i'm leaning toward killing the queen, letting most of the brood emerge, dusting them off, and starting them over.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    North Bend, WA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: something to think about

    Just a new split that never took off, started investigating and there it was. Isolated consisted of moving it to the other side of the property. Just wanted to minimize drift. Again, I wanted to remove the genetics of those mites more than I did the bees.

    Honestly, mites have never been a problem for me. I had a bad year a couple back with nosema, that's the one I really worry about.

    I'm putting some hives in the city this year. We'll see how they manage among all the vectors.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,664

    Default Re: something to think about

    again, very interesting iwombat.

    the one hive i lost was to mites was also a weak split that never took off.

    i shook it out when it was obviously too far gone, (wish i would have gotten to it sooner).

    it never had enough stores to get robbed, and i froze the comb for later use.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,500

    Default Re: something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Donna: Let's not fire up that debate, it's not an "us vs. them" thing. It's about managing and protecting your hives from being left exposed to robbing by nearby hives. Prudent beekeepers, regardless of whether they treat or not need to protect weak and diseased hives from being robbed. If you want to be a "bond" beekeeper that's fine just be considerate of others and take proper precautions.
    Boy, isn't that the truth of the matter. The "we" and the "not we" camps aren't helping to move this discussion forward. I apologize to all if you're offended by what I say, but...most of the folks here with strong opinions haven't kept bees long enough, haven't got enough bees, or enough apiaries spread out across the countryside to have a valid opinion. "One man's opinion of moonlight". You can talk about pet theories, or dogma gleaned from the internet, but if you haven't experienced a crash from sloppy neighboring beekeepers, you just don't have a right to be critical.

    I can show you two beautiful apiaries that crashed from varroa because a new beekeeper in between doesn't know how to manage his varroa population...let alone his bees. My other apiaries roll ones and twos, but these two 13s and 15s. And how about a yard of 75 nucleus colonies that went down because a neighboring beekeeper's sick packages were allowed to crash from nosema. And he blamed ME for HIS losses. GMAB.

    So you folks that need to point fingers, etc, remember this. I love my bees as much as you love yours. Beekeepers with 10,000 colonies care as much about their bees as beekeepers with 10. We're a community folks, if we don't drive it apart. Let's be respectful of each other, and aware that what we do in our own bees, whatever dogma it is we believe, is effecting the whole neighborhood. We're all in this together.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,940

    Default Re: something to think about

    I stick with my guns on my opinion that minimizing pest loads is important, but I do see that treatment free doesn't necessarily mean uncontrolled pest/disease populations. I think good beeks manage their pests, bad ones don't know what to look for or how to manage properly.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,664

    Default Re: something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    I stick with my guns on my opinion that minimizing pest loads is important, but I do see that treatment free doesn't necessarily mean uncontrolled pest/disease populations. I think good beeks manage their pests, bad ones don't know what to look for or how to manage properly.
    100% agree.

    and i would add a third category, those who know how to manage, but willfully allow them to collapse with hopes of ending up with better bees. some in this category seem to think they are doing the bees a favor by allowing them to get sick.

    i understand the logic, but disagree that the risk/benefit is worthwhile.

    i don't really take issue with the approach so long as responsible measures are taken not to threaten other bees.

    this is just my opinion, but making it known here seems to have been taken by some as me being adversarial to treatment free beekeepers.

    but the opposite is true. i believe it's possible to manage bees in a sustainable way off treatments, and this is what i am striving to do.

    i also believe that accomplishing this a lot to ask for anyone brand new to beekeeping. it's a lot more involved that just 'don't treat your bees'.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    54

    Default Re: something to think about

    I don't think anyone should be offended by Jim's comments because I think most of us (big or small) do love our bees and also have no desire to harm other beekeepers bees. I moved my hives 20 miles to avoid infecting my neighbour when I found out I had mites. I will do everything I think is best for my bees and will make sure that it does not affect others. I know there are beekeepers out there who are not responsible, but I think they are not the majority, at least around here. I only have 8 hives and have had bees for 8 years, but do I have an opinion, you bet I do.
    Squarepeg, your statement on - it's a lot more involved than 'don't treat your bees' - I think you sure are correct about that! I wish I had known a lot more about TF and SC when I was beginning with bees, but I am learning fast...I think...
    Respectfully,
    Donna

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,384

    Default Re: something to think about

    >can you describe what actions you took, if any, when you first went off treatments, to prevent the spread of disease in your apiary?

    The only "disease" I've seen in my apiaries in the last 38 years is a small amount of chalk brood. I have no diseases to prevent. The only "treatments" I ever went off were Terramycin (1974) Apistan (1999 to 2001), Oxalic acid (2001 to 2002) and FGMO fogging (2001 to 2002). What is there to spread if you don't have any?
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,664

    Default Re: something to think about

    thanks michael, that's remarkable.

    sounds like there's a lot to be said for sound beekeeping practices, natural comb, honey only diet, good genetics, ect.

    do you utilize any intervention when it comes to a colony that is not thriving for any reason?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: something to think about

    and thank you donna.

    it's obvious by your posts that you are responsible and committed to very sound beekeeping practices.

    i wish you well!
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,664

    Default Re: something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    Let's be respectful of each other, and aware that what we do in our own bees, whatever dogma it is we believe, is effecting the whole neighborhood. We're all in this together.
    i missed your previous and most excellent post michael, thanks for relating a real life case of how irresponsible practices can have a big impact.

    your closing comment is spot on.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,030

    Default Re: something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    folks here with strong opinions haven't kept bees long enough, haven't got enough bees, or enough apiaries spread out across the countryside to have a valid opinion.
    Ha Ha glad to see someone actually come out and say that.

    A consequence of the net, is that many with no knowledge, have a platform to exercise their right to express their opinion. And if challenged, the standard response is "but I have a right to express my opinion". However the word valid is the critical thing, any opinion can be expressed, but bottom line, it is the reader who will decide if it is valid.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,030

    Default Re: something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by d.frizzell View Post
    I moved my hives 20 miles to avoid infecting my neighbour when I found out I had mites.
    Donna
    Donna I'm thinking, sounds like you are in a pretty isolated place. Do you know how you got mites? (bought queens perhaps?) If it is something you could avoid in the future, I'm wondering. You only have 8 hives. Could it be worth killing them all, then re-stocking from your neighbors mite free hives?

    If I were in your position I would certainly consider it. But only if I knew where the origional infestation came from and could avoid that happening again.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Clackamas Oregon
    Posts
    759

    Default Re: something to think about

    Guy moved into an old abandoned house a half mile from me, had about a dozen hives along the highway. Next week he built a fence around about ¾ acre of it using parts of old garage doors and moved in enough rotten, rusted rolling stock to make his own junk yard. I have been thinking about my yards since he moved in for the very reason Palmer discussed.
    “Why do we fall, sir? So that we might learn to pick ourselves up” Alfred Pennyworth Batman Begins (2005)

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    North Bend, WA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: something to think about

    Yeah, treatment-free is soooo not about "just don't treat". You actually have to really deeply understand the lifecycle of all the pests and ways to interrupt that w/o chemical treatments.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,030

    Default Re: something to think about

    Wouldn't interrupting the pest lifecycle be a method of treatment? So somebody using it would not be treatment free?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,687

    Default Re: something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Wouldn't interrupting the pest lifecycle be a method of treatment? So somebody using it would not be treatment free?
    Not according to the unique forum rules.

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...ue-Forum-Rules
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    North Bend, WA
    Posts
    504

    Default Re: something to think about

    management != treatment

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,030

    Default Re: something to think about

    Fair enough.

    However I'm not a slave to the unique forum rules. Reason being, if the bees require the pest lifecycle to be interupted by the beekeeper to ensure their survival, then they are not, to my mind, truely treatment free bees.

    For example, I have been able to virtually eradicate mites from an infested hive, by removing two complete consecutive brood cycles. The bees in question were in no way varroa tolerant. But by the rules of this forum, the hive was run treatment free. Would I then sell these bees as treatment free bees? Of course not.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,532

    Default Re: something to think about

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Would I then sell these bees as treatment free bees? Of course not.
    Hey, the house rules don't extend into your personal business! They're there so we can discuss a style of beekeeping and everyone know what it means when the term is used.
    Regards, Barry

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