Does anybody have any scientific evidence that brood breaks in the hive has any significant value in the reduction of varoa mites. I know it is touted to be a tool in the treatment of mites but have not found this to be the case in the hives I keep. considering when a queen is removed that egg laying ceases for about 30 days the mites that hatch would become phoretic until the new queen starts producing brood and then its just back to business for the mites. So no increase in mites in that period but also no increase in bee's so are not back where we started 30 days ago.
Johno
"I have not been sampling bee's for mite loads" This would be why you are not seeing results. Just a break in brood by its self may not be enough. Some Beek use a break in brood along with some else like a soft treatment on phoretic mites or drone removal...
I don't sample either the thought of counting mites every day sounds terrible and that's not why I am a beek, a quick look in the SBB tells allot about a hive.
"I have been Requeening hives with Daughters from my carni queen and also from a VP spartan queen" Maybe your genes contribute to you results. I bet MB bee's contribute to his results.
The feral bees for example were almost wiped by the mites. They were doing the same thing then as now, same spring swarms... But for some reason or combination of reasons they are on the rise.
I have no scientific evidence but there must be something to it. You don't get that many Beeks to agree and anything. That alone must be scientific evidence.
Guys thanks for your replies, but once again all the info is based on assumption, what is required is some documented facts. To start at what percentage of population is the mite load critical Clemson gives it at 5% if much above this the hive can be lost, so at some point some manipulations will work, above that point not. As to the feral bee story and the increase of such I suggest it might be in step with the growth of new beekeepers. Considering that all 9 of my hives in 2012 would of swarmed and yet very few of surrounding hives were seen to swarm. I must admit I am home most afternoons during the summer months and have my home hives in full view frommy lounge glass doors. As far as the genetic part goes it still amazes me that a feral hive with no help from man say Brother Adam could outperform domestic hives that are being reared for specific genetic traits. Does not really add up? What I am really trying to get at is that beekeepers should try to document more of the facts in procedures and manipulations than rely on he said she said.
Johno
What I am really trying to get at is that beekeepers should try to document more of the facts in procedures and manipulations than rely on he said she said.
Johno
I think part of the issue is 'feral' hasn't really been researched and I agree with johno on this one, how many of these feral hives are true descendents of wild survivors and how many are from someone else's bees going free and if they truly are feral survivors what's being done to catalog this information.
johno, 100% agree, i started keeping careful notes last year.
jrg, i asked mike bush about this, and he felt like the 'ferals' we have today are pretty much 'mutts'.
but, it's likely that these 'feral mutt survivors' are developing resistant traits by natural selection, and these bees can help to introduce these traits into managed colonies via drones and open mating.
I think part of the issue is 'feral' hasn't really been researched and I agree with johno on this one, how many of these feral hives are true descendents of wild survivors and how many are from someone else's bees going free and if they truly are feral survivors what's being done to catalog this information.
The original question was if and if so how do brood breaks control varroa. I think both Astro Bee and myself gave some good accounts of how it seems to work in our operations and some suggestions for how johno might be able to implement it as well. Others have chimed in with logical observations of the mechanics of how it may well work. If scientific proof is required before trying any of these suggestions then I am not sure there is much more to be accomplished in this thread. I think brood breaks when properly done are generally accepted in the industry as being beneficial, and are about as uncontroversial a subject as you can find in mite control. I run lots and lots of hives in this manner. A brood break will be the only means of mite control I will use until fall. I dont feel the need to prove anything to anyone I am just relating my experiences. Take them for what they are worth.
Guys, alot to think about in your posts, some times I sits and thinks and some times I just sits and its hard to tell the diff. Jim it would be good to know what the mite load is before a brood break and you would be counting phoretic mites and a count after the brood break should realy be a higher count or perhaps remain at the same level because the mites in the brood will emerge and all become phoretic, and there are so many unknown parameters there that can sway the outcome because the amount of mites in the bood is not known. I also think that you are treating in fall, also how do you do your queen breaks, I woul think that a queen cell into ahive would be a sufficient brood break after leaving the hive queenless for a week.Squarepeg as for feral hives around this part of the world I think most of them are from the same mutts that have been coming into this area for the past 5 years and I do not think their natural selection is any better than the USDA, Cobey and others that I can not remember names of.
But 25 years down the varoa road we do not have a lot of data to rely on. You can just about pick any system of hive management and you find as many beekeepers claiming it does not work as claiming that it does So in the end dont trust verify. This means a lot of record keeping I am afraid But it is a poor wind that does not bring good to someone so maybe I will glean some good from all of this.
Johno
>Squarepeg as for feral hives around this part of the world I think most of them are from the same mutts that have been coming into this area for the past 5 years and I do not think their natural selection is any better than the USDA, Cobey and others that I can not remember names of.
true johno, but the thing is that unmanaged bees in the wild which have survived winter, and are able to continue through a season or two, at least have something going for them genetically, regardless of what strain they started out as.
it could be there are wild bees in your area that have been around for longer than five years. again, there's a lack of solid scientific research on that.
Here is the basic math with brood breaks. A ripe cell (10 to 11 days after grafting) will net you a laying queen in about 2 weeks. Larvae old enough to be invaded by varroa is around 8 to 9 days old. That gives you an 18 to 20 day break. If you want something longer than you can delay the introduction of your cell or mated queen accordingly keeping in mind that the gestation of worker brood is about 21 days and drone brood about 24. We do mite checks (doing either an ether roll or alcohol shake) at about 20 days after removing the queen to determine if a treatment is worthwhile and in recent years and have found very few mites. I hesitate to do any treatment at this stage with a young queen just getting started.
Thanks Jim,
Do you requeen all your hives every year, I believe this is what a lot of commercial beekeepers do. Do you treat hives in the fall, or do you only treat when you feel the mite loads require treatment Thanks
Johno
Yes we requeen every year, I think I am probably in a minority in that regard. A fall treatment is all that has been required in recent years for us to keep mite numbers low.MAQS and hopguard are two treatments that are approved for use with honey supers on. I havent used either one and have not heard real encouraging reports on their efficacy when used while the bees are supered up. I just think its real difficult to make a significant dent in mite populations midsummer when the hives are tall and loaded with brood and bees.
Remember varroa have a life span too so (I think it is 30 days) each week 1/4 of the mites die of old age too so they do not reproduce. Only a fraction are still alive as I understand, 1/2 after 2 weeks 1/4 after 3 wks, etc. until brood is capped again.
The issue is no one is talking of the "winter mites".
Everyone talks about winter bees, but the long lived winter mites presumably don't exist (which they most certainly do)... LOL
Wow! Here's a blast from the past! And still no even slightly scientific study on what happens to mites during a brood break. Anecdotally I have observed that colonies that swarm overwinter better. Except last year when even caught swarms had varroa in unsustainable numbers.... Anybody have a study yet?
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Related Threads
?
?
?
?
?
Beesource Beekeeping Forums
1.8M posts
54.7K members
Since 1999
A forum community dedicated to beekeeping, bee owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about breeding, honey production, health, behavior, hives, housing, adopting, care, classifieds, and more!