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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Rowley, MA
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    I got curious because the treatment sounded so easy and cheap (my two main requirements!) so far it appears a gray area as far as legality goes and I might be constrained from putting pure on my honey label if I used it.. I found this http://www.setonresourcecenter.com/m...1/wcd01199.pdf which I admit is scary. I know companies need to cover themselves so not sure how much is true and how much is CYA

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,374

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    Make no doubt about it, OA in its crystalline state and when vaporized should handled with respect and is something you don't want to inhale. When diluted into a 3 to 4% syrup solution though it's pretty safe. I have even had it splashed in my eyes and only noticed a very mild stinging sensation.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,981

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    Jim, I have to read these MSDS sheets at work all the time. It is my responsibility that all containers are labeled correctly according to OSHA and one of the things I have to do is make up labels form info on the MSDS. For the most part they are terroristic language. You have to read them with a bit of background info.

    This sheet is for OA Crystals which is exactly what beekeepers would be handling.

    Two sections you would be most interested in is the PPE and the final hazard ratings located on the last page. There is a screw up on the last page though because each hazard is rated on a scale from 0 to 4 there is no 20 as listed next to hazard. I am goign to venture form other information on the MSDS that this should read.
    Fire 1, Health 2 and Reactivity 0
    Water is rated a 1 for health hazard.

    For the PPE it is listed:
    Splash goggles. Full suit. Vapor and dust respirator. Boots. Gloves. A
    self−contained breathing apparatus should be used to avoid inhalation of
    the product. Suggested protective clothing might not be sufficient; consult
    a specialist BEFORE handling this product.

    In comparison this is the PPE from the MSDS for Bleach.
    Personal Protective Equipment: Wear safety goggles. Use rubber or nitrile
    gloves if in contact liquid, especially for prolonged periods.

    Difference is a suit and a respirator.

    Bleach is a irritant tot he skin after long exposure. OA is an irritant with any exposure. Crystals can be ingested or breathed,. liquid bleach would not be considered so. Our people manage to figure out how to though. Putting it in a spray bottle and atomizing it for example. It has happened. Atomizing bleach is not in accordance with it's intended use. We are under no requirement to provide protection from such use.

    You could say the same about vaporizing OA.

    In all I don't find anything in regulation that mentions it being vaporized or for the use with bees at all. It is not approved or disapproved. IN this case it really is a matter of "Is it approved"? You can't expect anyone to then list every use it is not approved for. So the truth is if your use is not listed as approved. It is Not approved. and that is what matters. It is approved as a wood cleaner and bleach and as a bathroom and kitchen disinfectant. Including utensils that will come into contact with food. but none of these include the use of it being vaporized. It is approval of it used as crystals and dissolved in a liquid. I guess you could argue that dribbling is cleaning the kitchen in a sort of pre kitchen sort of way.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    DFW area, TX, USA
    Posts
    1,062

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jwbee View Post
    Other than breathing the vapors , there's not really much to worry about.

    Some people are more sensitive to it than others , I have used it both for bees and cleaning log homes , and skin contact with it has never bothered me at all , but it may burn you.

    In the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics we find that upon heating oxalic acid, the water of hydration boils off first, then at 315F the oxalic acid starts to sublime (go directly from solid to vapor), and finally at 372F any oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide.

    So some of the residue may contain formic acid , which would soon break down further into less harmful constituents.
    I want to believe that vaporized OA is hard on the mites and easy on the bees with little down side. Can someone help me understand the caution about too much heat when the vapor is delivered via a pipe heated with a butane torch? TIA
    LeeB
    I try to learn from my mistakes, and from yours when you give me a heads up :)

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,938

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    dont be too carless around the fumes. its concentrated and could burn your eyes, lungs, skin,

    I have also thought about the residues left within the hive, and breathing in the OA dust as I work the hives later on after the treatment
    Not so much the live hives, as someone here mentioned, the hive is polished and cleaned
    but the dead outs as I scrape the frames and boxes down releasing all that dust into to the air

    I dribble my OA but many here find vapourizing works well
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,938

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    ya it is best to find a machine which will keep the burning plate at a steady temp to achieve the proper vaporization
    crack pipes are a bit hit and miss
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Belpre,Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,297

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    Lee, crack pipes can be easily overheated with a torch, to keep the OA in the crack pipe at the correct sublimation temperature you need to be able to watch the vapor stream by applying it under glass on top of the hive, to apply it into the entrance is as Ian said "a bit hit and miss", if you cannot see the vapor coming from the pipe you do not know how much heat to apply. I agree with it being best to find a vaporizer that will keep the OA at the correct temperatures and they are quicker and easier to use, the hive need not be opened when applying through the entrance.
    Bill...in Southeast Ohio

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,981

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    IN my experience with a pipe is the pipe. The vaporized OA cools and recrystallizes on the pipe. ON a plate or shallow dish the vapors escape to the air and there are less surfaces for it to re crystallize on. Shallow and wide surface so that the vapors rise and do not contact a surface as the air currents carry them away.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    5,938

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    I believe Cowen has also made a OA vapour machine directed toward commercial use
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Columbia, Maryland. U.S.A.
    Posts
    252

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    Could OA be run through a fogger ?

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Belpre,Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,297

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    I don't think so, a fogger vaporizes something that is already a liquid, the OA would need to be heated to a liquid and then vaporized, I do not think the fogger was designed for this.
    Bill...in Southeast Ohio

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Polk Co, Oregon, USA
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Another question on oxalic vaporizing!!

    I know a guy who is building an OA vaporizer today and planning to use it this week. He has dry sugar in his hives as insurance feed. My question for those who have had friends use OA is, should the sugar be removed first. In other words, if the sugar is left on top the frames, will the OA vapor bind to it and harm the bees?

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