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Experiment 2012/13 - Acquiring drawn comb

17K views 60 replies 18 participants last post by  wcubed 
#1 ·
The beginning beekeeper wants to sample his honey in the first year. In his second year, he wants to avoid swarming and get good honey production from his overwintered hive. Lofty objectives. In some areas of the country, it can be done without much effort or cost, but in most areas Mother Nature does not provide enough forage to make it easy. The honeybee colony has limits on their capabilities, and those limits are intensely affected by forage availability.

Having empty, drawn comb simplifies swarm prevention and adds motivation for increased honey production. Both objectives are more easily met by simply having sufficient drawn comb inventory.

The intent of this experiment is to get some extra comb drawn in the first year. The concept adds some costs to the first year, but pays dividends in the second year. Be aware that this approach is a drastic shift away from conventional thinking. We will be combining two strong starter colonies in mid summer. In other words, forfeiting a strong colony. Radical! Hear me out, please.

Two packages were purchased towards the end of our normal "main flow." The purchase of 2 starters is normally recommended for the beginning beekeeper for the benefits of comparison and support of weaker of the two. As it turned out, one colony was much slower developing than the other.

A late start was deliberate. We wanted to worst-case this demonstration so that it would be repeatable almost anywhere in the country. And worst case it was. We spent the price of another package on sugar to feed the two through the summer doldrums and through the combined colony fall preps. In the early going, we fed just enough to keep them going - a quart of 1 to 1 on average, every 3 days. As they grew, the amount increased steadily to a gallon, each, per week. Changed feeding methods three times.

Target date for combining the two was Sept. 1. Other priorities delayed that for two weeks. Sept.1 was selected because fall brood nest reduction starts about the end of Sept. and the delay of 2 weeks was not significant.

Now, for the radical stuff:
One package was hived in 3 shallow supers of foundation and the other in a shallow and a deep of foundation - deep at the bottom. Both colonies started drawing comb in the shallow at the top of both configurations, as expected. The colony in 3 shallows expanded laterally across the top shallow, filling that box, before expanding downward into the next lower shallow. They did the same thing at the next lower level. Meanwhile, the colony with a single shallow only drew a few frames in their shallow at the top before starting drawing frames below in the deep.

Both colonies superseded their queen early in their growth. The deep unit opted to SS first and did not have much brood. The all-shallow unit waited until thay had substantial capped brood for replacement bees. So, the all-shallow unit got ahead of the deep unit and the deep unit never caught up in strength. When they were combined, the deep unit still had mostly frames of foundation in their top shallow outside of those used initially when hived. A few frames of honey where they started. Fortunately, the deep was mostly drawn, with good brood.

The combine was assembled with the deep of brood on the bottom, a shallow and a half of brood from the all-shallow unit (other half - capped Domino honey), The unfinished super from the top of the deep unit, and two full shallows of capped Domino at the top. Oops, neglected to mention that a fourth super had been added to the all-shallow unit in late summer. At the time of combining, that unit had four shallows - 2 brood and 2 drawn and capped. The stack combined was a deep and 5 shallows, filled on a work day with bees.

Too many bees and too much brood for mid Sept. in this area. Upped the syrup feeding to a gallon every 3 days to encourage backfilling of the broodnest through early Oct. The foragers were bringing both nectar and pollen on a small scale. If they were interested in protein supplement, it was replaced. Periodic checks through Oct. showed that they were indeed backing the broodnest down to the deep. And foraging continued through Nov. and early Dec. (unusual season) We slacked off on feeding in mid Oct to about a gallon a week into early Nov. when it was stopped completely.

The weekend before Christmas, we finally had a couple of nights below freezing. Early in the morning, three supers of capped Domino was removed from the top gently to be extracted between now and Feb. The cluster is a little oversized, but is located below two full supers and we expect them to winter well. All the answers will not be available until April, but we should have enough drawn comb to get real production in 2013.

Worst-casing this demonstration created a lot of feed jockying that the beginner would not be prepared to cope with or implement. Most of that extra cost and effort would be offset by starting two colonies early enough to have them grow on the full spring flow. At combine time he could pilfer a few frames of honey for his own use.

It also would not be necessary to sacrifice a colony at combining time. We pinched a queen that we considered less than desirable. If two normally developed colonies were to be combined, a nuc could be generated in the process for overwintering.

All in all, a fun project to keep me out of the pubs. Do with it what you will.

Walt
 
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#4 ·
Walt, I don't think it is at all out of line to first focus on building a colony capable of doing what we ask a colony to do. in some respect this is exactly what happens when a queen rearer makes a cell builder colony. Why not put some attention to this issue in regard to asking a colony to make honey as well. I have already looked at a few related management methods where more attention is given to preparing the colony to work rather than just setting back and seeing what a colony can produce.

One colony with a harvest is better than two with no harvest.
 
#6 ·
I started off with one hive earlier this year, and acquired 2 swarms (mid-June) and made a split about the same time. Because I was told I probably wouldn't get much honey the first year, I concentrated more on trying to acquire additional drawn comb. The swarms helped, as building comb is what they like to do, and the split turned out to be mostly just a bad idea (yet, a learning experience)...I'll make sure I don't spread out what I have too thin this year. I am overwintering just 2 hives after combining.

This year I have been bitten by the bait hive bug, so my intentions for 2013 are to use swarms and splits to help build up 1 or 2 strong honey hives at my house, expand to put 1 or 2 more starter hives out at another site, and try to overwinter a couple 5-frame nucs this year that I'll make up around July to be used for backup. With that being said, I hope to be able to come away with a good amount of comb in preparation for 2014, where I don't plan on any more expansion.
 
#8 ·
This thread had a half-life of about 5 hours. Am retrieving it from page 5 of the running list.
Roland went off line to comment. He need not to have done that to present his position. His northern perspective is known to me. His comment was to the effect that he can get production from less than a 3 pound package in the first year.

Regionality at work. In northerly areas, where production is gained in the summer, it's a different ball game from the southeast. Should I mention that there is much more area in the southeast than the area of the northeast that endures long, cold winters?

In tough winter areas, the forage season is compressed into much less time. The spring flow and the fall flow almost meet in the middle. If we go far enough north, the flows can overlap in mid summer. The colony motivated by space to fill just chugs along through mid summer. There is little colony incentive to reduce brood volume until fall.

In my area, the brood volume starts decreasing in May, and by July is down to the replacement bee level of less than a deep of brood. Field nectar falls to a point of not encouraging further overhead storage of honey in the first half of June. They stay in this standby mode until the fall flow stars in late August. Because it takes about a month to build strength to the point of adding honey, we seldom get much fall honey. Most seasons - none. It is significant to note that our production season is about 6 weeks, starting May 1. (In a good year)

So a starter colony, started in early April, doing well, barely gets established before the spring flow trails off. Typically, they must be fed to get them through the mid summer doldrums. Any honey production is very unlikely.

Flow timing accounts for the difference between the northern and southern perspective.

Walt
 
#9 ·
Interesting thread Walt, I enjoyed reading about the different stages of development, I started five hives this year using the resources of one hive which swarmed on me. To begin, from the mother hive I removed two frames, one of which had a swarm cell and I started a two frame nuc, then due to lack of good judgement on my part the mother hive issued four swarms, one of which I lost. I caught three of them and hived these little one pound swarms. Having an extra queen from a 1/4 pound cutout I pulled two more frames from the mother hive and started yet another hive. replacing the four frames in the mother hive with foundation I was now ready to grow these six hives. I fed them with 2 EA. 1 quart frame top home built Collens type feeders beginning in May and ending mid October, a lot of Domino honey and a lot of money lol.

Well to make a long story short they all did well and each of them went into winter with two fully drawn deeps and the top deep filled and capped with Domino/wildflower honey blend. This took a lot of frame manipulation to ensure they were all being drawn correctly and not lop sided, checkerboarding and comb trimming helped a great deal with this, balancing hive strengths by moving brood from one hive to another was important as well. These hives will be ready for the spring flow if they survive the winter ok.

I will be watching to see how your hive does this spring, thanks for allowing us to be a part of your ongoing efforts to try something a little different. :)
 
#12 ·
In eastern Tn, my honey flow of stored extractable honey starts with the Tulip Poplar (mid-April) and runs through June with Sumac/Clover. I extract over July 4 weekend. If I wanted to move my bees up on the Cumberland Plateau which is a short 20 mile drive, I could get another month of honey production with sourwood if the weather is right with good rainfall through out July. It's all dependent on rainfall for mid to late summer honey flow.
 
#11 ·
walt, I am getting a better understanding of your conditions.

When is your ussual dandelion bloom?

Can you provide an estimate of the average honey crop in your area?

Did I ever reply with the results of replacing all of the brood chamber(10 frames) with foundation?

Crazy Roland
 
#13 ·
Walt, thanks for sharing that info.

If your season is that short, I suppose feeding is your only option to build comb unless you have stores to give them. I'd prefer not to feed unless they are starving or won't survive the winter with the stores they have.

Did I ever reply with the results of replacing all of the brood chamber(10 frames) with foundation?
Roland, I would love to know what happened.

Matthew Davey
 
#14 ·
Roland,
First off, dandelion is an almost inconsequantial source here. It peaks about early apple bloom. Our bees have already committed to swarming by starting swarm cells by that time. Our bees work tree sources in the swarm prep period. Redbud is normally used for backfilling. Note that redbud can tolerate light freezes.

Glad you gave me a reason to mention our average honey crop. Dr. John Skinner of U. of Tenn reports that TN is a 50 to 70 lb area. Early in my efforts, when taking no steps to avoid swarming, that's about what my yeild was. Good reason for that. If you let the colony decrease the brood volume by backfilling in swarm preps, You don't get that brood volume back for the rest of the season. In fact, the brood volume continues to decrease through the summer. But backfilling starts in March. So, you have the whole season with reduced brood/population. The honey you get in the supers is limited to the safety margin between what the colony CAN do and what they MUST do for colony survival.

The loss of honey production of the swarmed colony is normally attributed to the loss of bees to the swarm. That's not the real reason. They could easily make up the loss of population in a single brood cycle. The real reason is the permenent loss of brood volume to swarm prep backfilling and subsequent reduction through the spring flow.

With checkerboarding, our production is roughly doubled. The side effects of CB are possibly more importent that swarm prevention alone. Not only does the broodnest not contract with backfilling in swarm preps but the brood volume continues to expand for another month. Brood volumes increasing up to the equivalent of 2 to 3 deeps of brood. Some pacesetters make 200 lbs.
More bees make more honey.

Don't remember a word picture of a full box of foundation below the excluder. Queen down there by herself?

Reminds me: Perhaps the question was poorly worded, but didn't get exactly the answer that I wanted. I wanted to know if they would draw foundation in the broodnest before the all-over waxmaking of main flow. If your system causes early wax making in the broodnest, you might not see the main flow as a sudden and general all-over wax making capability.

Walt
 
#17 ·
interestingly, i haven't fed through the summer dearths so far, and still had honey to harvest in the fall. i was surprised how little of their stores they had to use to make it through the dearth.

i had mentioned not wanting to feed for dietary reasons, but also to let the bees respond more naturally by brooding up and down in response to upcoming increases and decreases in forage availibility.

my first three falls, i fed after harvesting. but this fall, i decided not to feed. i weighed my hives on november 11th, and again on december 31st. i'm amazed at how little weight was lost between those dates. (although we have had a few warm spells and they got to forage some).
 
#19 ·
Very nice documentation Walt, so bottom line was: 2 packages started on foundation, 5 shallows, 1 deep of drawn.
WWW looks like 1 hive (assume double deep, overwintered?) to 5 double deeps. Assuming two deeps drawn initially and all foundation (or was it drawn?) For 8 deeps of foundation.
My plum flow starts first at mid-March (about a full month ahead of crab apples and early Gravenstien apples), ending in blackberry (end of June / beginning July for my elevation). Little or nothing after that.
I am looking to build and draw shallows so good thread.
 
#20 ·
I believe that our main flows are of similar lengths, and the average poundage, although higher, reasonably similar. The first serious pollen is dandelion mid April, which must hold them until the Sweet clovers start in late June. First extraction averages July fourth, with most of the flow over by mid August. That is NORMAL, which has not occurred in a while. The target to hit is peak populations by the last week in June. How much different are we(other than timing)?

As to the foundation, before the main flow, two hives (single deep, excluder, and deep supers) each had the queen "walked in the front door" after the brood chamber was "hung up". With similar populations, one hive started to draw the foundation as needed for the queen, only slowing them down slightly(compared to other hives in the yard). The other hive totally ignored the foundation, nearly abandoned the queen, and only drew it out when supers filled and left them no other place to work, and caught up in the end. Conclusions??? Don't try to guess what the bees do, they will ALL make a fool of you.

I guess my point is that there is more that can be done besides swarm prevention. Some how in the last 70 years, the focus has shifted away from what you can do on a routine basis to help the bees beyond not swarming. The question still remains, is our added effort financially viable.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852
 
#21 ·
minz, I started with one overwintered hive having 2 deeps, the other 5 double deep hives (10 deep boxes) were completely drawn from foundation, ending the season with 6 double deep hives, all with fully capped stores in their upper box's.
 
#22 ·
Walt, it has taken me some amount of time to understand the methods that you use and why you use them, it has been a mystery to me until today, I hope it's not because I am dense but now I can see why your methods work. Your seasons and forage and also the way your bees react to them is very similar to mine, where I live we are just a little bit behind you but not by much. I really thank you for taking the time to explain your beekeeping techniques, I have become a better beekeeper as a result.
 
#23 ·
No comments on the pic provided by squarepeg? Am disappointed. Thought at least a few remarks were forthcoming on fake photography.
The 2 units were at home in TN. The inset was a colony taken to MD. Was spending half time in MD that season, seeing to the care of my mother suffering from dementia. Took that hive up there to tinker with while there. Not that it matters, but the season there is delayed about 10 days from mine here.

mins,
They both were started on all foundation, but when the unit with the deep bogged down on growth, we did add a frame of brood from a developed colony (twice) to get them going again. With the boost, the colony drew the rest of the frames in the deep. I know - we cheated a little on the concept we were demonstrating. Maybe it would take 3 starters to cover all contingencies.

Roland,
Thanks for the input. One did and one didn't. But I still don't know whether the one that did started before "main flow" or not. You're right - it's hard to predict the outcome, especially when you monkey with their instincts for an empty cavity filled with continuous comb.

The reason this thread was started before the results were in is that it supports some opinions that were challanged on another thread. I don't remember all the circumstances that led to those opinions, but we had success in applying them and we apply them on a regular basis. The opinions in question:
1..The bees prefer to rear brood in a deep, when the alternative is a shallow.
2..The bees do not "like" the break in functional comb between frames of the Lang.
Some might consider the actions of the bees in this test actually supporting either of the above opinions a bit of a stretch, but it was pretty much as expected. The colony in all shallows saw no advantage to building downward, which is normal, and instead expanded laterally across the whole top shallow. The colony with the deep below only drew a few frames in the shallow at the top before jumping the gap and drawing full frames below in the deep. Think about it.

We moved from double deeps a single deep and the rest shallows to take advantage of those preferences. Expansion and contraction of the broodnest takes place in the shallows and the deep remains brood through the process. How many threads have you seen where the broodnest was in the upper deep in the fall? Doesn't happen here.

Walt
 
#24 ·
The opinions in question:
1..The bees prefer to rear brood in a deep, when the alternative is a shallow.
2..The bees do not "like" the break in functional comb between frames of the Lang.
Some might consider the actions of the bees in this test actually supporting either of the above opinions a bit of a stretch, but it was pretty much as expected. The colony in all shallows saw no advantage to building downward, which is normal, and instead expanded laterally across the whole top shallow. The colony with the deep below only drew a few frames in the shallow at the top before jumping the gap and drawing full frames below in the deep. Think about it.
I am trying but I see no correlation between what you tested and what conclusions you have made. I have seen 2 out of five hives have brood in the top box (5 High) in the fall. Are you saying if you don't contain the queen with an excluder she will not lay in the supers? I am not sure what you are making a claim to.
 
#25 ·
If I got the details all sorted out correctly in my head.

The bees in all med had no deep frame position. so they simply built horizontally filling the top box with the break between frames a seeming boundary they where reluctant to cross.

The bees with two med on top of a deep started at the top in a med but then moved downward rather than horizontally. Supposedly they are aware of the larger frames at the bottom of the hive and this is their way of getting there faster where they prefer to be. This would lend some support to the idea that bees do have a preference for the size of frames.

I have seen the bees do the same tunnel up the center drawing of comb in the opposite direction when it came to reaching a bottle of sugar water at the top of the hive. The impression to me was that they wanted an easier path from point A to point B and had little interest in what lay between. so they drew comb out slightly on the foundation to use as something like a ladder. But they moved nearly all that sugar water into lower boxes of the hive. I didn't realize it at that time but the bees had already built their ceiling of honey over their brood nest. and my top box was just empty space to them for a while. I didn't realize I needed to make a hole through that honey. I read Walts book and think I figured it out now.
 
#26 ·
walt's book is the best way to get the overall picture, including the proper manipulation for optimal 'cavity dynamics'(bees making bees and honey) with repect to maximizing the expoitation of the waxes and wanes of forage availibily.

translated: having a good working knowlege of the motivation of the bees at the time, helps to understand the colony dynamics. understanding the colony dynamics helps to make decision about how you manipulate your boxes and comb.

the benefit to the bee is that the beekeeper is helping more than hurting by making changes to their cavity.

the benefit to the beekeeper is less swarms, more honey.

i don't follow walt's practices to a tee. same way with m. bush, m palmer, r. oliver.

i am gleaning what i think are the best parts of what they do, and i am taking the best parts as they seem to be working for me, in my location.

walt's 60 page manuscript with illustrations is the best $10 i've spent in beekeeping.
 
#28 ·
Put in it's simplest form:
The colony instincts are to build the broodnest downward from the top, filling honey in above the broodnest as they go.
From establlishment through subsequent seasons, the broodnest remains at the bottom and in winter/spring buildup the overhead honey is above to grow into. (heat rises)

For some colonies, their preferences interfere with their natural instincts. Lang hive design influences the natural order of their activities.

D. Y. got it.
Walt
 
#29 ·
D. Y. got it.
Walt
Get what? That bees refuse to cross over the bars to raise brood? No I don't get it. I don't see that in my hives. I am not saying that it doesn't happen in your hives.

I think bees start at the warmer surface and move away from it as the flows progress then eat their way back to the warm surface during dearth because they have no choice. If the hive is not vertical then their direction of movement is based on food. During flows they move away, during dearths they move towards. I believe any wooden obstacle in their main cavity be it a knot or a 2x4 is of little concern for the bees as long as it doesn't close off the cavity.
 
#30 ·
As the OP discussed drawn comb is gold for a beginner. I found it to be the biggest limitation for making nucs and limiting how hard I could split. I put out a swarm traps last year for as many as I felt I could risk the drawn comb (lost sleep over hanging traps) justified the risk by equating it to priming the pump. My swarms in the traps were real late and did not generate as much comb as anticipated (like Roland said they did not do as anticipated).
A big time or commercial operator making drawn foundation may not be dollar wise but somebody working on expansion new comb is like finding gold.
 
#32 ·
Radar,
Saw that when it was fresh. I read them all. Almost a full time job.
Ace bashing is an interesting diversion here on the forums. The moderators let it happen because they know Ace enjoys it. If he didn't, he would stop machine-gunning absurdities. Actually, I try not to participate in the game. He bought a copy of the manuscript and persons who have a copy get preferential treatment here.

Ace,
You are entitled to your opinion, regardless of how poorly founded.

Walt
 
#34 ·
Ace bashing is an interesting diversion here on the forums.
Walt, I am sorry you see my questioning as "Ace bashing". I read what you wrote in your manuscript and I think it is beneficial. I just don't think it is gospel.

You stated very clearly in your first post what your intent was for this experiment. Then later on you bring up something totally different and as I see it not even supported by what you did.

I can assure you I don't have any preferential treatment on Beesource.
 
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