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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    18

    Default A hybrid species?

    The keepers down south keep a species of bee which is a cross between the carolian and italian bees. What kind is that? Is it alright to keep?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Livermore, CA
    Posts
    1,410

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    I actually think that cross is pretty common here in the USA. I often find carnies and Italians together in my hives. I guess it depends on the mating situation. They are still bees and will still provide honey, so no need to worry!
    Coyote Creek Bees

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,712

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    You may find the following useful:

    http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/....12%20copy.pdf

    If you are using Search for bee species, using "Carniolan" will probably get better results than "carolian".
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,624

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    One should remember that virtually queens are open mated with a variety of drones. Hybridization is really the norm, and beekeepers are the better for it. Strictly from a color perspective I love to see a hive with a variety of colorings in the population. Particularly love those striped breeders.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Aberdeen, Idaho
    Posts
    530

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    This idea of crosses between subspecies and ecotypes of Apis milifera being hybrids is incorrect. A cross between Apis milliferara and Apic cerana would be a hybrid. Crosses between common honey bees and african honey bees are not hybrids either. So the whole idea of hybridization in the common honey bee is erroneus. This is not to say that there are no advantages in crossing these bio types. The crosses widen the genetic base and in my opinion produce a better bee. Our bees are muts and produce bees that look like pure Italians all the way to bees that are essentially black. In some instances all in the same hive.
    Dave

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,136

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    That's interesting Dave and I'm one of the people who tends to refer to a cross between say, italian and carniolan as a "carni hybrid". What is the correct term?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    4,269

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    Hybrid works for me for crossbreeds, for all my purposes and probably most folks. It is common usage but may not be assbolutely correct usage.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    3,044

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    it's a hybrid of sorts. Just like crossing two parent inbred lines i.e tomatoes, the resulting line is referred to as a hybrid although maybe not in the truest sense.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,136

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    Cool. I don't like getting too hung up over words, although they are important and misuse can be aggravating. (Plus show ignorance).

    Looks like "hybrid" will do, for the common folks.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,285

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    Yeah, both will be unknowingly incorrect. Like the folks who illustrate cartoons about the Mayan Calendar w/ a picture of an Aztec Calendar Wheel. Why don't you call them Carnicrosses? Or Carni/Italian crosses?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    6,136

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    Actually, when talking to people I usually do. But for online banter "hybrid" seems to slip out easier, it can avoid confusion with cross (angry) bees.

    Yes that Mayan thing was a bit of a laugh, wearing weird clothes & thinking they understood what those old Mayan guys had been talking about.

    But most of them were just there for some dancing and drinking LOL!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,934

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    'mutts' works for me. (finding just the right 'mutt' is my goal )
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    18

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    my mistake, I meant Carniolans. I forgot to mention this was down south in the Philippines. I guess it would still be the same answer though hahaha

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Posts
    996

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    A hybrid is the result of a cross between 2 unrelated individuals from the same species. If they are truly 2 different species then they cannot breed and produce fertile offspring i.e. a mule.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Aberdeen, Idaho
    Posts
    530

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    A mule is a hybrid, and not always sterile. The offspring as far as I know is a horse and fertile. Many of the hybrids we use are from different species. Reproductive isolation can be genetic ( different chromosome numbers ), behavioral, or biochemical.
    The use of inbred lines is to increase the expression of hybrid vigor. Hybrid vigor increase as the genetic differences of the parents increase. I wonder if anybody has tried to cross A. mellifera with A. cerana.
    I am recently retired from a career in plant breeding. We crossed diploid wild species to hexaploid species to try and retrieve disease and insect resistance.
    Dave

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Sandy Ridge,NC
    Posts
    110

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    I like Carniolans and italian mix. thats what i have, small clusters in the winter and boom in the spring. i got some pure italians also, they have a huge cluster now and eat up almost all there stores. my Carniolan mix have lots of stores and small clusters. i also notice the Carniolans are out and about in cooler weather.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    brownwood, TX, USA
    Posts
    862

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    Does someone sell Carniolan "mite resistant" bees in either nucs or queens? Bear in mind, for shipping times, that I live in West Texas. Also, will Carniolans survive 50 or 60 consecutive days of 100 plus temperatures in the summer?

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Vernonia Or
    Posts
    88

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    (My first year beekeeping - hope there's patience here for inexperience.) I'm going to have 2 hives - I'm thinking 1 Italian and 1 Carniolan. I'm interested to see what differences I can detect over the year between the breeds. If later I introduced a virgin queen of the breed I prefered, would it then mate with drones from both hives and become a balanced mix, or hybrid, or....what?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,742

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    >A mule is a hybrid, and not always sterile.

    The males are always sterile, at least in recorded history (which goes back a very long ways). The females are rarely fertile. The oldest account historically that I've heard of was in 480 BC and was considered a omen.

    >The offspring as far as I know is a horse and fertile.

    The offspring would still be a mule technically, but there is a record of one that appeared to be a horse and was not sterile. Most are sterile.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#Fertility

    Zorses (half horse and half zebra) are similar. (aka zebroid zedonk, zebra mule, zonkey, zebrule) They are almost always sterile but there has been at least one that I've heard of that was fertile. I never heard if the fertile zorse had fertile offspring or not.

    All of these tend to be a female horse and a male of the other species. When it's the other way around, my grandpa called them "Jennies". But the more common term seems to be "hinnies". They are smaller and more rare.

    But these are all crosses with other species. A carniolan is the same species as an Italian. Both are the species Apis mellifera.
    One is the variety (aka race, breed) carniolan and the other is the variety ligustica.

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesraces.htm
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    JACKSON OHIO
    Posts
    486

    Default Re: A hybrid species?

    Mutts the only way to go

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