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dado fingers question

45K views 108 replies 21 participants last post by  kilocharlie 
#1 ·
Hello guys, fairly new to wood working here and I can't seem to find this question (at least explained in a style I understand) but I have a tablesaw set up with a 3/4" dado, and a incra I-box jig. After setting up the jig, I adjusted it till the fingers were snug (they started out loose) and now what seems to be the problem, how exactly do other users out there cut their fingers spacing where you can get a full finger on the top AND bottom? Is one of the full fingers part of the other board or what? I already have my wood cut out to exact measurements for the 9-5/8" deep hive bodies. I will be making medium supers later. My joints are fitting together great now, it's just the spacing on the first cut, and getting the other plank of wood to mirror the exact opposite. I know that this sounds like a pretty obvious question to most experienced hands but stumping me. Thanks for all the comments, and Merry Christmas to all
 
#30 ·
Yes sir I will Mr Honeyman, in fact I just screwed up that time. I think I will start ripping my rabbet first, THEN cutting my dados. I built them today like Mr Hogan said, and it works out perfect, using the full fingers on my side pieces, that way I don't even have to chisel anything. I'm starting to see why everyone out there has 2 table saws, instead of a second table saw, I'm thinking about getting a router and router table next year.

Let me ask any of you point me to a good thread that you can build frames with a table saw only? It's either buy them, or make them. If it can be done on a table saw, I'm all ears. Thanks (seems like buying them can be rather pricey)
 
#31 ·
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Let me ask any of you point me to a good thread that you can build frames with a table saw only? It's either buy them, or make them. If it can be done on a table saw, I'm all ears. Thanks (seems like buying them can be rather pricey)
whiskeytripping... It can all be done on a table saw, but, I believe you will find making them, unless you plan on making a lot, you will find you had rather buy them.

Two table saws??????? I have 6. Don't have to move fences.

cchoganjr
 
#32 ·
Well I hope I haven't screwed up royally, I went outside today and checked my inside measurements on my boxes and found out they were a little smaller than recommended. I guess I had my dado set just a little too deep, I know for sure the wood was the right length. My inside length on my langstroth 10 frame is 18-1/4" L x 14-11/16" W. and my langstroth Nuc hives measure 18-1/4" L x 7-3/8" W. my question is, will this work? I don't have a frame to drop in there cause I haven't bought any yet. And if it will not work, how can I salvage this? Get out the sander? I have already assembled 2 big boxes and 4 Nuc boxes, I already have 4 more big boxes cut out I haven't assembled yet. Any help would be much appreciated
 
#34 ·
Just checked a new assembled frame and end bar to end bar is 17 13/16. Top bar of frame is 19 1/16 and need another 1/16 in length from end of frame rest to other end, so frames can be manoeuvered( rests get gummed up with propolis).

Width is not as imporatant as there is more surplus room.

Supposed to be 18 3/8. 18 3/8 minus 17 13/16 just leaves a bee space of 4.5/16 on either end and that is tight. And you are tighter than that.

I'd likely chuck the ends and cut the sides to be ends. But I may be called picky!

I have made supers and it is tricky and now purchase unassembeled pre cut supers.
 
#35 ·
Thanks mgolden for responding, I kinda figured width wouldn't be a problem, due to me probably only running 9 frames anyways, now length on the other hand, that will be a different story. I'm not sure I could talk my wife into spending anymore money here on my hobby. So I will have to salvage what I have if at all possible. I figured worst case scenario, I would have to sand it some, and I can't stand things not being perfect myself. BUT I'm just gonna have to live with it. So the bee space on the length is critical? And I'm sure someone else has had this happen. I am definately green on my woodworking skills, and I should have thought about the dado depth killing my inside dimentions, I was more thinking about making them a little longer then sanding them perfect. Looks like I might get quite a bit of practice with a sander before its all said and done.
 
#36 ·
I just thought about it, but on my last 4 unassembled boxes, I could dado off 1/16" off the end plates in between the fingers. If this size is so critical. Or could I take a 1/16" off the unassembled frames when I buy them? This just makes me sick to even think about it
 
#37 ·
While it is important to consider bee space, your situation is not the end of the world. You may get a little more burr comb in those boxes than if you had perfect bee space, but few hives are perfect anyway after weather exposure.

My suggestion is to not magnify a small error in the boxes by modifying standard frames. If necessary, modify the boxes to be workable, and keep everything else standard.
 
#38 ·
Radar Sidetrack,..... Dean.......O.K. I get it now.

As I have said before, in my older years, I am a little slow. I took it that he was going to make them the old fashioned way, can't remember the name of the tool they used, that allows you to make dado joints manually,. or with a router and template, or perhaps he had found a new way to make them. It was not sarcasm on my part. I am ALWAYS interested in new ways to do things.

I do appreciate humor, just failed to see it in this case. My bad.

Thanks.

cchoganjr
 
#39 ·
Just tell your wife you could be spending more money on golfing! lol

Seriously, I don't know as though bee space is critical on the ends walls. I know some of my dimensions are tight because I tried to add metal rests and they made the box too tight to insert a frame. Other supers/my home made ones had sufficient room with metal rests added.
 
#40 ·
Radar sidetrack, thanks for your suggestion, I thought about the frames being different sizes. That wouldn't be good. Now I will rip a 1/16" off my unassembled hives. And in the burr comb, if my box is tighter than normal, they will build burr comb in it? I would figure slightly larger would Invite that. Either ways, something like this will definitely ruin your day. But you always learn in a situation like this. I guess I will sand some on my assembled hives.
 
#41 ·
Braved a trip to the shed and measured two of my purchased supers and they are slightly less than 18 1/4. So I'm living with it and didn't know it.

Super dimension for frame rest end to frame rest end is 19 1/8.

So I am pounding my metal frame rest flat so they can be used.
 
#42 ·
whiskeytripping....On subsequent boxes that you make, cut you a small piece of wood the thickness of the proper dado cut. Before you start making your cuts, (setting the saw depth), cut a valley on a scrap piece of wood, then use the block you save and make sure the block fits flush in the valley, or just ever so slightly more, (referred to as being "proud",), then your fingers and valleys will be correct. Save the piece of wood for future box making.

cchoganjr
 
#43 ·
Mgolden, thank you so much for the info. I am just gonna live with it then and not change anything. But I will chalk this up as a important learning episode in the wonderful world of beehive building. What kind of temps are you facing up there? It's a chilly 53 degrees in my part of Texas. Thanks again for the info. I feel WAY better now. I'm just not gonna worry about it
 
#44 ·
It's -10F this AM and 1.5 ft of snow. We've had a steady two months of miserable winter, even for us. Interesting to hear beekeepers talking about their bees going on orientation and cleansing flights. Haven't seen either of these for a good two months!!!!!!!! Any undertaker or disorientated bee that try to fly, make, sadly, a 5ft one way flight.

Have insulated and wrapped my hives and the inside hive temp at the top center is 30F this AM.
 
#45 ·
My bet is frames will fit as is. slightly tighter than normal but they will still work. You actually are long on each end by 1/32 of an inch. you should have a 16th of an inch of extra space at each end of a top bar. show me that beekeeper that hangs every frame in the box within 1/32 of exact center. They are dropped in and can be off as much as an 8th of an inch one way or the other.
 
#46 ·
Thanks Daniel for the info. At this point in the game it's just gonna have to work. It looks like I might have dodged a bullet this time. And I learned a very valuable lesson. Thanks to all that have commented. Have a Merry Christmas everyone
 
#47 ·
Whisky here is a tip. draw a line on your board that is the inside of the box. measure from that line the distance you need the inside of your box to be and draw another line. as long as all your dados and fingers do not cross those two lines you are good. fingers to short you can live with. to long you can fix. but you can't make the inside of the box bigger if you cut the dados to close together. And don't feel bad it is easy to do what you did.
 
#48 ·
You will be fine so long as the frames fit long ways. If they are tight, the bees will stick them down more and it will be more difficult to remove them, but this shouldn't be a huge problem.

Width is not an issue, as you will be keeping all the frames pushed tightly together in the center of the box. The extra room or lack of it on the outside is not a problem, either the bees will make the outermost face thicker, or in many cases, won't use it anyway.

In the future make sure your dados are exactly the same depth as the thickness of the wood you are using if you want flush ends. Me, I'm not worried about the look on the outside so much as I'm concerned that if I cut them a bit deep the frames are tight. Made a couple that way, and made a couple nuc boxes so narrow that I can only use narrow frames or just four frames instead of five, but that's OK -- painted them a different color that my standard boxes so I can keep track.

You will rapidly discover that the bees do not care what the boxes look like, and so long as you keep them painted, the fit of the "fingers" is immaterial to the functioning of the box, which is in fact to keep the bees dry and free of icy drafts.

I've got a few boxes to make this winter, and a pile of frames to cut as soon as I get my cheapo band saw modified to work properly. Should keep me out of trouble until garden time rolls around again in about 9 weeks.

Peter
 
#49 ·
I built my own boxes for the last couple of years and my own frames last year. Do you know that the plastic frames are way shorted at the end of the topbar than the wood ones? Nothing like standing in front of a hive and the frame in your hand not fitting. I took them to the belt sander since I needed to make the end rounded a bit like the commercial ones. Even for the 70 or so frames they trimmed down in a hurry. Hemlock and fir shoots right off on a belt sander, make any modification you want (doesn’t add any though).
 
#50 ·
Well these boxes are going together pretty well, they don't sit completely flat (one corner almost 1/8" high), they are all pretty much all this way. What actually causes this? I checked the squareness before I started cutting my pieces out. And I fixed the depth of my fingers so my inside diameter of the box is good now. This won't be too big of an issue, I will use some 80 grit sandpaper on my palm sander and should square the box up to make it flat. I'm sure if there is an ever so slight gap, the bees will fix this problem. (I'm gonna do my best to make sure there is no gap) they are starting to come out good. I guess kinda seeking some perfection here for next time. Thanks guys for the info
 
#51 ·
This is a common problem, probably due to less than perfectly flat lumber when cutting the fingers. The solution is to put one nail in each side, square up the box and rack it to make it flat, then nail it up the rest of the way.

Ditto if using screws -- make sure the box is square the flat with just four screws in place.

This is better than machining it flat after, as you then have a frame rail that is not flat! The bees will fill small spaces with propolis, but then the boxes are difficult to get apart.

It's very difficult to rack the box flat after you have all the fasteners in, I've tried. I've had very good luck with squaring it up with just four nails in place, the seem to stay flat without problems.

Also, after the bees fill all the frames up with honey, the boxes tend to flatten on their own from the weight. Much easier than messing about with them.

If you do need to 'adjust' them, a hand plane works much better than a sander, a small block plane is all you really need. Watch you don't hit a nail, though!

Peter
 
#52 ·
Thanks psfred, I just figured with a dado finger , it had to be something with it. Like something was off or something. I will try what you said and see if I can finish up the last ones doing that method and see if it works better. Thanks for the info
 
#53 ·
Well i got yet another lesson in wood working. After i cut my fingers too deep and was worried about the bee space, i stopped what i was doing till i got my frames in. I assembled some, and they fit great (on the 2 i had put together that first day) even with the inside dementions being a little small. So after i found out they would work, i went back to the barn and i tried to start assembling my boxes :( well they wouldn't go together no more. What a disappointment. It wasn't a total loss though. I went ahead and cut the sides into ends now, i have to buy more wood and then redo the sides again. It has been really dry, and they have been out there 2 weeks now, now its been really rainy, and i guess that wood twisted. From now on, I'm gonna put them together after cutting my fingers (dados). My barn floor is dirt and gets pretty wet inside. Im sure this is why it bowed up and wont fit now. All my other pieces have fit great
 
#58 ·
Thanks for the info guys, this is definately a live and learn situation with wood working. Its funny how fast a feller can learn when it hits your pocketbook. Thanks again, it was only 4 boxes thankfully.
 
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