dado fingers question

[Daniel Y]

Whiskey, the reason your wood cupped is it got moist on one side when laying on the ground and not the other. So one side expanded and the other did not. try laying them back on the ground cupped side down and see if they straighten back up. IF they do assemble them and quit playing around

Actually you should be able to store hive pieces unassembled. you just have to keep them save and dry.

[kilocharlie]

I'll be the odd guy out and say stick to finger box joints, not rabbets nor butt joints! The finger-joint boxes are WAY stronger. Sugar pine is a good choice as it cups very little, another favorite is bald cypress as it lasts for years.

A sled (as opposed to a pushblock) is made up for finger joints. It crosses both grooves in the saw table at 90 degrees. I usually clamp 8 parts to it at a time when cutting the finger joints. There is a peg the size of a finger 3/4" over from the dado. Cut a notch, move the part over so that the notch rests on the finger to automatically space the next notch.

I find it better to make the new stagger design for the fingers at the top of the short end of the box, so that the 3/8" shelf cut into the top inside of the short end is a deep finger that extends all the way to the outside edge of the box. The top of the long side has a stepped notch to fit perpendicular to the shelf.

A glue can and a paintbrush proved too slow for gluing up a box - some glue always dried before the box was assembled. I made a dipping tray and use a good sheet metal pan under the assembly jig to control the excess. I wipe glue (Titebond III) with a squeegee first and a wet sponge second.

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

I find it better to make the new stagger design for the fingers at the top of the short end of the box, so that the 3/8" shelf cut into the top inside of the short end is a deep finger that extends all the way to the outside edge of the box. The top of the long side has a stepped notch to fit perpendicular to the shelf..

kilocharlie, you had me right up to there. Ha. Guess that is a matter of preference. I like the 3/8 overlap, rather than basically floating rabbet in the front and rear. Difficult, (not impossible) to nail into this 3/8 rabbet from the side. The overlap will glue, nail/stable into a full finger from the front.,

Are you saying that Titebond III dried before you got the box assembled.

cchoganjr

[kilocharlie]

I'm not talking about rabbet joints. If the wood cups strongly, they fall apart. You could make mating nucs that way, they are only out a month or two, and usually in good weather. Beehives made with finger box joints and treated with linseed oil can last outside 24/7 in all weather 40+ years if re-painted every other year.

The new stagger-stepped pattern can be seen in Dadant's or Mann Lake's catalog. The stagger step on the top finger makes the 3/8" shelf less likely to warp apart from the long side of the box, and you can staple right through it 90 degrees to the shelf and into the end grain of the long side. It is a far superior design.

Painting glue with a brush on 4 faces of 30 finger joints takes too long. Just dip the ends, 1/2 assemble, and wipe the excess off back into the tray, then fit it over the squaring jig and clamp and staple. (Wash the glue off the squaring jig.)

An air-powered staple gun sure gets the job done better than nails. You can set the depth of better guns so that the crown of the staple is buried and your belt sander won't rip a belt on one.

[minz]

Here is my new sled, made from trimmings from cutting a dinning table down to a coffee table.
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/...z/DSCF4217.jpg
I cut the long sides, 4 at time (I do not final rip to width until done so I chalk the reference edge). http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/...z/DSCF4218.jpg
After all of the long sides are cut I leave them clamped and reverse them to the first notch. http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/...z/DSCF4219.jpg
The short sides then ride right along the blade, making the first finger so that the frame rest will not be seen from the outside. A perfect mated fit. (shown with 3 short ends for clarity) http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/...z/DSCF4220.jpg
I remove the long ends and finish the sides.
After the first cut remove the long sides and finish cutting the short ends.
Yeah my shop is a mess and I did use rebar tie wire to put the propane heater on top of the band saw table!

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

kilocharlie... I am not talking about rabbet joints either.

I am at a disadvantage here I suppose, I don't have a new Dadant, or Mann Lake catalog. I will try to pull up a photo from Mann Lake, or Dadant of the joint you are talking about. If it is a superior joint, I am all for it. I would like to see it. I did not think that this design was as strong as the traditional overlap of the front rabbet (frame rest) onto the end of the side boards, because the rabbet (frame rest) could warp away from the end of the side of the box, and you would be nailing/stapling into the end of a 3/8 rabbet (the frame rest).

Is this the type joint you are talking about. I made these nucs last year when we were talking about the new joint that Kelly Bee either made or was considering making.

new box joint.jpg

New box joint (2).jpg

cchoganjr

[minz]

I found that I only need to put glue on the short sides. Each finger and across the face, is fast enough that the glue does not set up on me and all fingers have glue. I drill and counter sink the holes on every other finger (kid job) before glue up. Clamp, square and shoot two screws (2 1/2”) into each long end only (since they are screws I only need to do the long sides, they will not pull out). It was great with kid help but when he is gone I do not always get a nice square end so I am building a Harry posted except with clamps.

[steve andrews]

I have found that pocket holes from inside and tightbound glue and 5 holes is great and strong works great these joints are as strong as it gets

[minz]

Cleo, how do you do the first wide finger/ joint. I know it has to be simple but I am missing it (I am also missing why but you have explained it to me so many time it will not help) LOL

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

minz To tell you the truth, I can't remember how I did it. There was a thread last year about this new joint, someone explained it to me, and I went out in the shop and made the nuc pictured above. Turned out, that wasn't how the joint was being made. Where I had the width of 2 fingers without a valley on the side piece, what they were talking about just had one finger on the long side that the end fit inside.

I am in Georgia this week, when I get back to Ky on Sat. I will look at the nuc again, perhaps I can tell you then.

The only reason I made it was because someone suggested this would be a better joint. I didn't think so, after I made it. As you can see the top nail is a #4, and it is nailed into the 3/8 rabbet, (frame rest). I don't think it would be as strong as the 3/8 overlap on the end.

I remembered how I did it. Just start at the bottom cutting my box joints rather than starting at the top. Make a second valley cut at the top on the end pieces.

cchoganjr

[psfred]

Brushy Mountain leaves the finger on the top of the ends and cuts the recess on the long board to fit and has you nail through the 3/8"part. Seems to work fine, but it's a hassle when you are not using a gang saw that cuts the whole board at once. Home jigs that let you cut one dado at a time will require two setups and remembering to cut that first one properly.

What I do is cut the dado in the top of the sides, cutting the rabbet off. I then run a 1 1/2" finish brad at about a 45 degree angle into the top finger, or just leave it un-nailed. I don't think there is much difference in strength and they are easier to cut. Since you shouldn't be prying on the top of the rabbet anyway, you get a nice solid 3/4" side all the way down.

Peter

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

psfred.... I'm with you, there probably isn't much difference in strength, but, I make mine the way they have been made for years with the front and rear pieces,(ones with the rabbet, frame rest), overlapping the top side finger by 3/8 inch,the width of the front and rear rabbet.

I cut the front and rear boards first. Then I cut the top finger (on each of the 2 side boards) 3/8 less by lowering the saw blade 4 turns, then turn back up 4 turns to cut the other fingers full length. Works for me.

cchoganjr

[kilocharlie]

Minz - Nice sled! Thanks for the photos!

Peter and Cleo - Close, but the new arrangement leaves the "wide finger" on the top of the short end out to full 16 1/4" width with the frame hanger rabbet in it. The notch in the top of the long end is staggered to mate up to the rabbet and full-depth rabbet below (it is a double-wide finger). The advantage is that the fastener goes through the 3/8" x 5/8" narrow lip part (cross-section) of the rabbet at 90 degrees to the grain and into the end grain of the long side, and allows for a lot more glue area in that spot, changing it from the weakest joint in the hive body to a very strong one, and not sending a fastener into the end grain of the narrow 3/8" x 5/8" lip.

Sorry, I tried an ASCII pic, but the editor omits all the spaces, destroying the image.

Also, yes, it is another setup for a single dado with a sled. A gang or form cutter that does all the fingers at once can have the stagger step built into it. Stack them and cut 'em all at once. :-)

[psfred]

This joint is a royal pain to cut on a dado set on a table saw if you are making a lot of boxes, since you have to make several cuts that require a different setup for each one. Commerical boxes are cut on gang saws (all the fingers are cut by separate blades on a mandrel at the same time, one pass per board, both sides), but I have to cut them one dado at a time. It's quite enough hassle to cut that many dados already, I don't want to have to do two complete setups. This is complicated by the current use of 5/8" deep rabbets rather than 7/8" rabbets, which DOES increase the strength of the remainder -- it's shorter and stiffer, hence less likely to get broken off, but unless you want to cut MORE dadoes, the top finger isn't the full depth of the rabbet any more.

This is the standard joint from Brushy Mountain and the old Kelley boxes, but I don't see any real advantage. Looks nice, certainly seals well, but I don't think it's all that much stronger. Kelley now uses the same joint I do -- the rabbet is the dado on the end pieces, all the dados on the sides are the same. Easier to manage during production, I suspect.

The strength in a box joint is not in the nails or glue, it's in the fact that you have substantial interlock between the boards. The main place that boxes get damaged, other than joint failures due to water intrusion and rot, is when someone sticks a hive tool in between the boxes and pries up on the frame rest rabbet. Doesn't take may events like this to damage it, it's not very strong, and it doesn't matter which way it's nailed up, prying on it will dent it.

If it wasn't such a pain, I'd use the joint you describe just because it looks better and is more likely to seal, but I don't think there is enough gain in strength to bother. The bees take care of any water leaks and will more or less completely fill any crack between the boards with a pretty decent glue.

Note that if you drive a nail at a 45 degree angle, you won't be putting it in the narrow part, it will be in the wide part. I wouldn't drive ANY nail into a 3/8" x 5/8" part, it will split if the nail is big enough to do anything besides look pretty.

Peter

[kilocharlie]

Peter - I agree, it is a PITA to cut on a single dado setup. Since it is an end finger, just leave the top part long and dado the full-depth notch, and index to the spacing peg and keep on cutting dados. Cut the top stagger notch in the long side later on the band saw or router table. Much easier and cleaner. The advantage shows up several years down the road when the weather curls the narrow lip out away from the box long after the glue has failed (old design). The new stagger joint should hold up a dozen years longer, as it has 75% more gluing area and room for 2 fasteners. It is WAAAAYYY more betterer.

Double down on the "don't kick the hive tool into the narrow lip" sentiment! That's kind of like, "Try not to stab the hive full of AHB's with the forklift". Hee Hee Hee.

[Rader Sidetrack]

Sorry, I tried an ASCII pic, but the editor omits all the spaces, destroying the image.

You can fix the spacing problem by making the ASCII pic in a fixed pitch font, such as "Courier New" used in the example below, and use the BBCode [CODE]xx[/CODE] to bracket the ASCII pic:

ABCDEFGHIJK
BCDEFGHIJK
CDEFGHIJK
DEFGHIJK
DEFGHIJK
DEFGHIJK
DEF  IJK
DEF  IJK
EFGHIJK

Also, I used the "Align Right" button to make things align up. You may need to go to the "Advanced" menu to find the "Align" buttons. More info on BBCode functions can be found by clicking on the "BBCode is on" link at the very bottom of this page.


EDIT:I saw that I had improperly terminated the CODE parameter. Once that error is fixed, it works much better, as shown above. Now no need to substitute periods for spaces.

[kilocharlie]

Cleo - I just saw the image on your post #66. It is the opposite finger cadence - the short end has an extra-wide finger (2 fingers wide, or 1.5") with the rabbet at the top, not a notch. The long side has a staggered notch to fit the rabbet in the short end.

In your pic, the short end of the box has a notch at the top and the finger is on the long end. "Opposite finger cadence" is the best phrase I can think of. Again, it is a PITA to make on the table saw. If I was cutting the new design on a table saw with a single dado gang, I would leave the part that matches up to the rabbet long and cut the rest of the dado notches as normal, then go back and cut the top (half-) step on the router table. The strength difference will show up 10 years down the road...it will still be very strong (especially if you dip it in Linseed oil) instead of curling outward or splitting end grain away from the nail (if any) as per the old design. The new stagger-notch design weathers much better, and is considerably stronger in the first place. It is completely worth the extra step, even more so when treated with linseed oil, dried properly, and a paint job maintained regularly.

Minz - My sled is only slightly different - I made the base wide and added support triangles for the upright, a hand protector box over where the dado comes out, and a pair of coat hangar rod handles.

Also, make a squaring jig - a strong box or block just slightly smaller (1/32") than the inside dimension of your box. Cover it with brown plastic mailing tape so the glue doesn't stick, and wash it off with the wet sponge after you sponge off the hive body. Clamping with bar clamps is quick and easy, get 8 staples into the box corners so it holds square, and shove the jig out. You can clamp as strategically as necessary as you complete stapling, checking with your framing square. You staple the box to the jig less often this way. Doing this and building the boxes over-tall, then trimming them flat and square to final height makes them stack pretty evenly. You are only ever off about 1/16" out of square across an entire run of boxes and using the same jig, from run to run as well.

Steve A - Are you talking about a hidden dowel joint? I guarantee fingers + glue + 1.75" long x 1/2" crown staples are stronger after the weather has had at them a few years, but I like how you question everything.

Another good joint is a lockmiter joint made at 90 degrees, as it has no end grain exposed and LOTS of glue area. Staple or nail it all you want, even biscuit it. Faster to make, and probably the best joint out there, but you have to have a planer to control the thickness so both parts are the same thickness and really slam that board down on the shaper table (and the 90 degree part against the upright angle plate) with finger boards. Unless you are going to set up for high accuracy, it's probably very frustrating for the average guy in the home shop.

[kilocharlie]

Big thank you, Graham!

I have a buddy here now so will make an ASCII pic soon.

Ok pray for me...

\...............\
.\...............\
..\...............\
...\...............\<--Long Side (19 7/8" finished)
....\...............\
.....\...............\
......\________\__________________________________ ___________________________________________
.......l\....3/8" wide x 5/8" deep narrow lip on top of short end (16 1/4") of hive body due to rabbet for hanging frames
.......l..\_______________________________________ _______________________________________________
....l\.l...l
....l.\l...l<--NOTICE STAGGERED NOTCH in long side!
....l......l......O<--nail
....l......l..Double-wide finger (3/4" x 1.5" with 3/8" x 5/8" rabbet on inside)
....\.....l
.....\....l
......\...l......O <--nail
....l\..\.l
....l.\..\l_________
....l..\..l................l
....l...\.l................l
....\...\l_________l..First finger from long side
......\..l
.......\.l
.........l__________
.........l.................l

I hope this helps.

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

kilocharlie...Thanks.. I think I have the concept. I am in Georgia until Saturday, but when I get back to Ky. I am going to look at this, build a nuc and take pictures to see if I understand it.

If I understand this concept it is the same concept used for years, except it has a double finger on 16 1/4 board with 3/8 rabbet in it and the front frame rest rabbet overlaps the first finger of the long side of the box.( which has a reduced finger)

I can't debate,(notice debate, not argue) the merits of the new/vrs old concept, but since I have never had a problem with the old way,(several thousands of boxes) I think I will stay with the old way, at least for the time being. This is not to say that I am set in my ways in my older years, I am ALWAYS open to new and better ways to do things, and I sincerely appreciate people discussing and advancing better ways to make equipment and keep bees.

kilocharlie..I just saw your more recent post. I will reread it and get back later. Still in Georgia so can't do anything until I get back to Ky.

cchoganjr

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Cut the top stagger notch in the long side later on the band saw or router table.

kilocharlie....Why wouldn't you just build a fence pattern that fits in the miter groove,(eliminating measuring each time, just drop in miter groove and clamp to table), then crank your same dado on your table saw that cuts your box joints up to 3/8 inch, stand the end pieces perpendicular to your table and run againstpattern to cut that 3/8 inch off, flip your board and do the same on the other end. If you cut multiples at a time, leave them clamped and cut this 3/8 inch off multiples at a time. This would eliminate band saw or router stated above.

cchoganjr