dado fingers question

[mgolden]

Braved a trip to the shed and measured two of my purchased supers and they are slightly less than 18 1/4. So I'm living with it and didn't know it.

Super dimension for frame rest end to frame rest end is 19 1/8.

So I am pounding my metal frame rest flat so they can be used.

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

whiskeytripping....On subsequent boxes that you make, cut you a small piece of wood the thickness of the proper dado cut. Before you start making your cuts, (setting the saw depth), cut a valley on a scrap piece of wood, then use the block you save and make sure the block fits flush in the valley, or just ever so slightly more, (referred to as being "proud",), then your fingers and valleys will be correct. Save the piece of wood for future box making.

cchoganjr

[whiskeytripping]

Mgolden, thank you so much for the info. I am just gonna live with it then and not change anything. But I will chalk this up as a important learning episode in the wonderful world of beehive building. What kind of temps are you facing up there? It's a chilly 53 degrees in my part of Texas. Thanks again for the info. I feel WAY better now. I'm just not gonna worry about it

[mgolden]

It's -10F this AM and 1.5 ft of snow. We've had a steady two months of miserable winter, even for us. Interesting to hear beekeepers talking about their bees going on orientation and cleansing flights. Haven't seen either of these for a good two months!!!!!!!! Any undertaker or disorientated bee that try to fly, make, sadly, a 5ft one way flight.

Have insulated and wrapped my hives and the inside hive temp at the top center is 30F this AM.

[Daniel Y]

My bet is frames will fit as is. slightly tighter than normal but they will still work. You actually are long on each end by 1/32 of an inch. you should have a 16th of an inch of extra space at each end of a top bar. show me that beekeeper that hangs every frame in the box within 1/32 of exact center. They are dropped in and can be off as much as an 8th of an inch one way or the other.

[whiskeytripping]

Thanks Daniel for the info. At this point in the game it's just gonna have to work. It looks like I might have dodged a bullet this time. And I learned a very valuable lesson. Thanks to all that have commented. Have a Merry Christmas everyone

[Daniel Y]

Whisky here is a tip. draw a line on your board that is the inside of the box. measure from that line the distance you need the inside of your box to be and draw another line. as long as all your dados and fingers do not cross those two lines you are good. fingers to short you can live with. to long you can fix. but you can't make the inside of the box bigger if you cut the dados to close together. And don't feel bad it is easy to do what you did.

[psfred]

You will be fine so long as the frames fit long ways. If they are tight, the bees will stick them down more and it will be more difficult to remove them, but this shouldn't be a huge problem.

Width is not an issue, as you will be keeping all the frames pushed tightly together in the center of the box. The extra room or lack of it on the outside is not a problem, either the bees will make the outermost face thicker, or in many cases, won't use it anyway.

In the future make sure your dados are exactly the same depth as the thickness of the wood you are using if you want flush ends. Me, I'm not worried about the look on the outside so much as I'm concerned that if I cut them a bit deep the frames are tight. Made a couple that way, and made a couple nuc boxes so narrow that I can only use narrow frames or just four frames instead of five, but that's OK -- painted them a different color that my standard boxes so I can keep track.

You will rapidly discover that the bees do not care what the boxes look like, and so long as you keep them painted, the fit of the "fingers" is immaterial to the functioning of the box, which is in fact to keep the bees dry and free of icy drafts.

I've got a few boxes to make this winter, and a pile of frames to cut as soon as I get my cheapo band saw modified to work properly. Should keep me out of trouble until garden time rolls around again in about 9 weeks.

Peter

[minz]

I built my own boxes for the last couple of years and my own frames last year. Do you know that the plastic frames are way shorted at the end of the topbar than the wood ones? Nothing like standing in front of a hive and the frame in your hand not fitting. I took them to the belt sander since I needed to make the end rounded a bit like the commercial ones. Even for the 70 or so frames they trimmed down in a hurry. Hemlock and fir shoots right off on a belt sander, make any modification you want (doesn’t add any though).

[whiskeytripping]

Well these boxes are going together pretty well, they don't sit completely flat (one corner almost 1/8" high), they are all pretty much all this way. What actually causes this? I checked the squareness before I started cutting my pieces out. And I fixed the depth of my fingers so my inside diameter of the box is good now. This won't be too big of an issue, I will use some 80 grit sandpaper on my palm sander and should square the box up to make it flat. I'm sure if there is an ever so slight gap, the bees will fix this problem. (I'm gonna do my best to make sure there is no gap) they are starting to come out good. I guess kinda seeking some perfection here for next time. Thanks guys for the info

[psfred]

This is a common problem, probably due to less than perfectly flat lumber when cutting the fingers. The solution is to put one nail in each side, square up the box and rack it to make it flat, then nail it up the rest of the way.

Ditto if using screws -- make sure the box is square the flat with just four screws in place.

This is better than machining it flat after, as you then have a frame rail that is not flat! The bees will fill small spaces with propolis, but then the boxes are difficult to get apart.

It's very difficult to rack the box flat after you have all the fasteners in, I've tried. I've had very good luck with squaring it up with just four nails in place, the seem to stay flat without problems.

Also, after the bees fill all the frames up with honey, the boxes tend to flatten on their own from the weight. Much easier than messing about with them.

If you do need to 'adjust' them, a hand plane works much better than a sander, a small block plane is all you really need. Watch you don't hit a nail, though!

Peter

[whiskeytripping]

Thanks psfred, I just figured with a dado finger , it had to be something with it. Like something was off or something. I will try what you said and see if I can finish up the last ones doing that method and see if it works better. Thanks for the info

[whiskeytripping]

Well i got yet another lesson in wood working. After i cut my fingers too deep and was worried about the bee space, i stopped what i was doing till i got my frames in. I assembled some, and they fit great (on the 2 i had put together that first day) even with the inside dementions being a little small. So after i found out they would work, i went back to the barn and i tried to start assembling my boxes well they wouldn't go together no more. What a disappointment. It wasn't a total loss though. I went ahead and cut the sides into ends now, i have to buy more wood and then redo the sides again. It has been really dry, and they have been out there 2 weeks now, now its been really rainy, and i guess that wood twisted. From now on, I'm gonna put them together after cutting my fingers (dados). My barn floor is dirt and gets pretty wet inside. Im sure this is why it bowed up and wont fit now. All my other pieces have fit great

[deknow]

Sometimes you can improve the bow enough for proper assembly if you wet the concave (cupped in) side of the board.

deknow

[pine_ridge_farms]

Sometimes you can improve the bow enough for proper assembly if you wet the concave (cupped in) side of the board.

deknow

Never tried it but I bet it would work. Wet the pieces down with a hose on a sidewalk and put concrete blocks on top of them for a day or two.

[deknow]

...I've also heard of folks putting the cupped side down, and wetting the floor with a hose. I don't think the blocks are necessary...



deknow

[pine_ridge_farms]

...I've also heard of folks putting the cupped side down, and wetting the floor with a hose. I don't think the blocks are necessary...
deknow

Your probably right!

[whiskeytripping]

Thanks for the info guys, this is definately a live and learn situation with wood working. Its funny how fast a feller can learn when it hits your pocketbook. Thanks again, it was only 4 boxes thankfully.

[psfred]

Wood moves quite a bit as the moisture content changes, as you have discovered.

All the commercial suppliers suggest you assemble boxes as soon as you get them, obviously because they are kiln dried and flat when cut, but if you let thiem sit around in humid conditions, they won't be in short order, and they can even crack as the outer parts swell faster than the inner parts. This is equally true cutting them out yourself, as the wood should have been pretty dry when you got it (unless someone stored a pallet of it outside, makes a real mess!).

Your pieces should return to close to what there were when you made them if you can dry them out a bit. Never ever put wood flat on a surface that will either enhance or restrict moisture movement, as you will get one side with higher moisture content than the other that way. Best to stand them up on one side with some space between them if you cannot maintain a fairly constant humidity.

Dirt floors are really bad in areas with lots of rain, the water migrates right in. Concrete can be a problem in the spring, when the air outside is damp and warm but the floor is cold -- tons of condensation.

Peter

[whiskeytripping]

Thanks abunch for your info psfred, i did have them on a metal table in the barn that was dry and flat, but just to be on the safe side, im not gonna cut my fingers till im ready to assemble them. I can cut my boards to length, BUT fingers i wont be cutting till im ready to put them together. Thanks againg for all the help