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Ok, im going from treatment free to oxalic acid vapor treatment and need opinions!!

21K views 72 replies 29 participants last post by  G B 
#1 ·
After seeing what them red frisbees can do to a strong healthy hive, im going to do my best to help them along with the fight against VM and have decided to go with OAV as my method of treating. I have been searching on youtube and on here as well as good ol' google to find different methods and cost efficiency. I have come up with possibly buying the JB 200 from up in Canada, actually from the Island I lived on for a while as a kid!!

Anyone with any experience with the tool please chime in!! Or if you have heard of something else that might be latest and greatest, let me know!!

I would like to build one, but dont have the mechanical expertise in this area, although some of you have made some great OA vaporizers!!

I plan on carrying a marine battery for the power source and will eventually be treating somewhere in the neighborhood of 20+ hives next year.

Thank you very much for any input you have!!
 
#40 ·
I use it as well , it is cheap , easy and effective , especially in cold weather.
But I am ver carefull to get far away from the hive I am treating until the vapours are dissipated.

Potential Health Effects
Eye: May cause severe eye irritation. May result in corneal injury.
Skin: Causes skin irritation. Harmful if absorbed through the skin. Rare chemical burns may occur from oxalic acid and may cause hypocalcemia. Gangrene has occurred in the hands of people working with oxalic acid solutions without rubber gloves. The skin lesions are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers. The skin may be bluish in color, and the nails brittle and yellow.
Ingestion: Oxalic acid is toxic because of its acidic and chelating properties. It is especially toxic when ingested. As little as 5 grams (71 mg/kg) may be fatal. Ulcerations of the mouth, vomiting of blood, and rapid appearance of shock, convulsions, twitching, tetany, and cardiovascular collapse may occur following ingestion of oxalic acid or its soluble salts. Oxalic acid can bind calcium to form calcium oxalate which is insoluble at physiological pH. Calcium oxalate thus formed might precipitate in the kidney tubules and the brain. Hypocalcemia secondary to calcium oxalate formation might disturb the function of the heart and nerves.
Inhalation: Inhalation of oxalic acid produces irritation of the respiratory tract, ulceration of the mucous membranes, headaches, nervousness, cough, vomiting, emaciation, back pain (due to kidney injury), and weakness.
Chronic: Inhalation of oxalic acid dust or mist over a long period of time might result in weight loss and respiratory tract inflammation. Rats administered oxalic acid at 2.5 and 5% in the diet for 70 days developed depressed thyroid function and weight loss. A study of railroad car cleaners in Norway who were heavily exposed to oxalic acid solutions and vapors revealed a 53% prevalence of urolithiasis (the formation of urinary stones), compared to a rate of 12% among unexposed workers from the same company.
 
#42 ·
I use it as well , it is cheap , easy and effective , especially in cold weather.
But I am ver carefull to get far away from the hive I am treating until the vapours are dissipated.

Potential Health Effects
Eye: May cause severe eye irritation. May result in corneal injury.
Skin: Causes skin irritation. Harmful if absorbed through the skin. Rare chemical burns may occur from oxalic acid and may cause hypocalcemia. Gangrene has occurred in the hands of people working with oxalic acid solutions without rubber gloves. The skin lesions are characterized by cracking of the skin and the development of slow-healing ulcers. The skin may be bluish in color, and the nails brittle and yellow.
Ingestion..... .
The same can be said for gasoline, bleach, furniture stripper, drain cleaner, and many other products that we are exposed to; some on a daily basis.
I am not saying that OA is completely safe, but all you need is proper safety precautions. Safety glasses, gloves, and a respirator. At least that is what I would recommend to strangers on the internet.

I only treat 4 hives, so I do not wear a respirator. I have no problems standing 10 feet up-wind when treating the hives. Heck I could probably add a few more feet of wire and sit inside the air-conditioned cab of my truck while treating.
 
#44 ·
Some great discussion here on this method!! I am going to order the OAV tomorrow and look forward to adding it to my arsenal!!

I do plan on wearing all PPE, including getting a GOOD respirator with cartridges and all and good gloves. It may be safe, but I would rather not take the risk, doesnt cost me anything to wear the stuff after initial purchase!!

Thanks again to everyone discussing this topic!!......................Jason
 
#46 ·
guys will use the vapourizor after they have the hives wrapped up for winter, little brood in the nest and the sealed hives makes for a good effective treatment. knock down method, use again in the spring to get a few more,
dribble works well too, and you dont have to carry around that battery and crack pipe

the key is to treat without any brood present
 
#47 ·
Anyone considering the use of a respirator should be aware that there are several types and brands of respirators. They all come with different cartridge configurations that are not always interchangeable (mechanically speaking). However the biggest thing that you should know is that there are different types of cartridges for different kinds of chemicals that you are working with. For oxalic acid you want a cartridge that is NIOSH approved and is marked OV/AG/HE (Organic Vapors/Acid Gas/ High Efficiency). It should also be marked with the colors purple and yellow (usually stripes or bands). Believe it or not there are over a dozen standard color codes that have been developed. You want to make sure that you get the right one. Yellow = acid gasses and organic vapor, and purple = particulates.

The worst thing that you can do is enter a hazardous atmosphere thinking that you are protected, but the wrong cartridge. People have died that way.
 
#54 ·
Fuzzy,

One of your hives was full of mites when I received it and is now gone. Out of respect for your beliefs, I have not treated any of your hives including the one that died. The rest of those hives are doing fine. Still not a bad survival rate.
 
#52 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi BeeGhost

Why not try dribbling it? For the cost of a small scale and a few dollars worth of oxalic acid you could safely treat 20 hives forever.

- no fire danger.
- no respirator need.
- accurate dosage is easy to determine and control.
- minimal equipment needed.

Dribbling is just a better bet when hives can be opened for treatment.

I've written a little more about oxalic:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/oxalic-acid-dribbling/

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/oxalic-acid-vaporizer/

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/fire-in-the-hole/

From my personal experience, I'd only fume them only if they needed treatment and it was too cold to break open the hives for dribbling.
 
#53 ·
My issue with dribbling is that the winter bees have already been born at that point and if the hive has significant varroa then the virus issues arise and the damage to the winter bees has already happened. Vapor is easily done with brood in the hive - just do it for 3 or 4 weeks a week apart. I do agree with Dennis that there is some fire danger. I always worry about the wax catching fire but it's never happened. I have charred the bottom of some frames.
 
#55 ·
BWrangler,

Ive looked at both the dribble and the vapor treatment and both their pro's and con's. Ive talked to members on here through PM's and also searched a lot of past threads to see peoples experiences with both methods of the treatment.

The reason I have decided to go with the vapor method is becuase it can be performed more than once a year and is not as harmful to the bees, yet effective. I am going to purchase the JB200 so I dont have to deal with using a torch more than I have too!

I have looked at your videos, and that little leak from the "Walmart" bottle was scary just reading about it!! There is no way I could afford to light my property owners fields on fire or myself for that matter!!

Thank you for your advise and for the links you have provided!!

Jason
 
#56 ·
Camero7,

You have charred the bottom of frames before? Wow!! Just out of curiocity, whats the space between the bottom of the frames and the bottom board? Also, was it a home made vaporizor or something like the JB200?

Another thing on my mind is this: With the power disconnected, can you dip the end of the vaporizer into some water to cool it faster and then wipe it down afterwords to get ready for the next hive?? It would seem that waiting for the tool to cool down would waste a lot of time? And what temp is it safe to add the oxalic acid crystals back into the vaporizer without having it touch off!!

Thanks for any answers!!
 
#59 ·
I use the JB200, I use 4 in tandem. Most of my hives have 3/4" space between the bottom board and the frames.

I use 2 -4 at a time. I've found the smoothest is to only use 2. I run one and fill the other while the first is running. When it has quit smoking, I pull it, dip it into some water [I don't immerse the electrical components just about 3/4 of the bowl]. Pull it out and the residual heat evaporates the water, fill it while the other is running. Repeat. Works fine and is the most efficient method I've developed to date. I can do a 20 hive yard in about am hour and a half.
 
#57 ·
In those videos of commercial beekeepers I see them spraying the bees with something out of a garden sprayer. What chemical are they spraying?
 
#61 ·
BG, The charring on the bottom bar of the frames occurs when the JB200 is not pushed far enough into the hive to overcome the weight of the handle and wiring, causing the heater and pan to be lifted up and come into contact with the frames. This can also cause the heater and pan to become tilted sideways and the liquified acid will spill out reducing the effectiveness of the treatment.

Sometimes ladder comb and other debris will prevent full insertion of the unit, so to overcome this problem keep a scraper handy to slide into the hive opening and clear a path for the vaporizer.
 
#64 ·
Sometimes ladder comb and other debris will prevent full insertion of the unit, so to overcome this problem keep a scraper handy to slide into the hive opening and clear a path for the vaporizer.
I carry my hive tool and if the vaporizer won't slide in easily I use the tool as a fulcrum to raise the hive a little and it slides in easily. You'll need to use it again to pull it out.
 
#62 ·
WWW,

Thanks for your insight! Good idea on the scraper for clearing the way below the frames!

My two hive pallets I made have 3/4" spacers, so it should provide enough clearance for the tool to slide in as I believe it's only 3/8" inch tall. I'll remember to slide the vaporizer to the half way point when using it for sure!
 
#63 · (Edited)
BG, I forgot to mention that things will go a lot smoother if you puff some smoke directly into the entrance, it helps to prevent frying bees in a hive that may be a little defensive.

The JB200 is 1/2" in height, and like you I have 3/4" entrances as well.
 
#71 ·
Dave Cushman in England says: “Some are concerned about Oxalic acid vaporisation producing a great deal of toxic vapour, but the point of the treatment is that the oxalic acid re-condenses within the hive very rapidly and coats everything in sight. Leakage will occur, but it will be a minor amount and the fine crystals will fall out of suspension fairly rapidly. If due notice is taken of sealing up the hive and prevailing wind direction, there should be very little exposure to the operative.

This is from an article I found , it tells just about everything you would want to know about OA.

Check it out at: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/
 
#66 ·
BG, I have only my personal experience to give you, and that is if you seal the hive entrance with a cloth before energizing the vaporizer you should have very little if any leakage, and if a little leakage does occur it seems to dissipate rather quickly. When the hive has been sealed for the required 10 minuets the OA vapor particles will be circulated in the hive by the bees fanning it and will settle in the hive where they will do the most good.

There are people who use the vaporizers without sealing the hive entrance but a good amount of the OA vapor particles will be lost out the front of the hive creating a cloud of vapor which can be hazardous and also make the treatment less effective on Varroa. The JB200 Heilyser holds a maximum of 2 grams of OA which is the minimum amount required to treat a double deep hive , so to loose the vapor out the entrance is to loose effectiveness of treatment.

Not sealing the entrance is a faster way to treat the hives and this is why this method is used but the hive is not getting the full effect of the OA. To get a full effect of treatment on a non sealed entrance one could use two vaporizers per hive treatment, applying a total of 4 grams of OA per a double deep hive to make up for the loss of vapor out of the open entrance but one would then have the vapor cloud to contend with.

In a nutshell, seal the entrance during treatment and you should be good to go, I do not wear a mask and have no problems, but I do wear safety glasses when handling the OA crystals.
 
#68 ·
I can't find it now. But at one time I read a study on OA vaporizing and at what dosage it has worked basically. Although 2 grams is what is standard for a double deep hive. It is about 3 times what is necessary to treat the mites. I amount suggesting anyone reduce their dosage as it has been suggested due to things like leaking. how well the vapor migrates through the hive etc.

Anyway the overall impression is that the recommended dosage already has the fudge factor included in it and has basically been proven reliable. I just stick with the 1 gram per deep ratio and have found that it still works even when it has not necessarily worked well. I don't get bellowing clouds of vapor with my method. But as far as I can tell it still gives the mites a wallop. My method vaporizes the OA over about a three minute period rather than quickly like the hot plates do. I am looking for a better tool to heat the acid with..
 
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