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Moisture content of wood and building boxes

22K views 81 replies 21 participants last post by  rmaxwell 
#1 ·
I've just got a bunch of wood from a mill to build about 40 boxes, and I'm wondering about drying - and how that will affect my measurements.

Wood shrinks as it dries, so I've heard that's where the 9 5/8" deep dimension came from - manufacturers building boxes out of not-so-dry wood and allowing for shrinking as it dries - the box stays safely withing bee space requirements. 9 5/8 is about an 8th too big for proper bee space.

So do I need to reach a specific dryness before making final cuts and assembling? Or is it safe to take wetish wood and build to 9 5/8 dimensions?

Thanks,

Adam
 
#34 ·
As for price, what you are being told etc. Take just a quick look at something like this.
http://www.bellforestproducts.com/birdseye-maple/

Now you had to get an idea of amount of wood for the money. In the project pack lumber Birdseye maple was running more than $10 a board foot. People buying this sort of stuff know a thing or two abotu wood. OR at least they shoudl or they will get taken to the cleaners. I so a lot of wood that is sold "AS" birdseye , figured. burled or whatever that is anything but.

Here is an idea of what Burl can be.
Metal


Now you can imagine someone taking a $300 plus piece of wood like that and making an instrument that every single detail will be examined. Has a lot to be concerned about when it comes to expansion contraction. how pieces of wood fit together and how to keep them that way.

In comparison a discussion of how wood expands and contracts in regard to boxes that have been hacked up and slapped together is a bit on the overkill side. But beekeepers wanna make their own and this always seems to be part of the conversation.

So what is the problem with beehives and the wood we use for them. First of all the worst wood from any log is the stuff that comes from the outer edges of the log. and every bit of wood you use in a beehive came from their. the good stuff from the middle is cut into other lumber and sold for the prices it is worth. You don't make a purse from a sows ear. Put another way. you start with garbage lumber and you can only build something so good with it.
Mainly just understand you are looking at the two extreme ends of a very broad issue. And beekeepers are shopping at the flea market quality end of the issue. It is only going to get so good.

Next but far more important. Be educated. know what you are buying. know why it is priced as it is. be realistic in what you can expect. Are their uninformed buyers. Yes there are. and those ready to take advantage of them are plentiful. It is worse when it comes to figured or higher priced wood.
 
#35 ·
Mainly just understand you are looking at the two extreme ends of a very broad issue. And beekeepers are shopping at the flea market quality end of the issue. It is only going to get so good.
I doubt that, I see the wood that comes into my box maker. Its premium wood, and special ordered. The good cuts off those logs are not being set aside, they are being sent to him. Not like he is ordering maple or oak, he is ordering pine, and specifically eastern white pine because of its many qualities wanted by beekeepers. Ease to work with, light weight, cost comparisons, durability and so on.
 
#36 ·
Ian..Daniel Y.. I tend to agree somewhat with both of you. Mostly true that bee boxes are not made from premium wood, but, also true that bee boxes are made from short pieces, and you can buy short pieces that will qualify as premium wood at a low price because they cannot sell the entire board/boards as premium boards. For instance a bad spot in the middle of a 12 ft. board may keep it from being sold as a premium board, so you get the board at a flea market price, while at the same time getting lots of really good wood from the rejected board. Cut out the inferior part and you have a lot of good wood from that board. It is also possible to get to know your saw mill and they will select quality logs to cut your wood.

There will be times you get burned, I know, I recently bought 200 bdft cypress as a test from a mill I had not dealt with before, 150 miles from me. When I arrived at the mill the boards were banded, and I did not break the bands until I returned home. To put it mildly, the cypress was very poor quality. I will not buy from them again. Buy a small quantity to check for quality before making a larger order. I often use less than 1st quality for my own boxes, nucs, or for swarm boxes, and only use 1st quality for those I sell.

I am not a large commercial box builder so, I can afford to take more time and use as much of a board as I can. A board I have bought at a very good price. Large commercial bee companies cannot afford to take the time to cull boards as I can.

cchoganjr
 
#37 ·
I just received my lumber order 2 weeks ago , that i placed back in August : / I am tired of having to plane the lumber , so i ordered it @ 7/8 x 9 7/8 in case it shrunk a bit, if this was wrong i don't know , but i did put it in a building and stick piled it .

i used to just go get rough 1x10 lumber that was air dried, but i had anything from 1.5" -1 1/8 in the same board and it took forever to get it the right thickness : (

Time shall tell if i did this wrong : ) I was hoping i could build over winter , but i don't know if it will be dry enough.
 
#40 ·
1.5" -1 1/8 in the same board and it took forever to get it the right thickness
Don't fight it. Cut your boards to length first. This is where you do the culling like Cleo is doing. Thicker boards can be used for different pieces or as I do thicker walled boxes in the brood chamber. Keep the inside dimensions standard. It is a shame to just make wood chips.
 
#39 ·
Ben Little.. My experience, and just my experience, (others may differ) is that if you are getting that much variation in the thickness of your boards, the mill is not using good equipment. You may need to change mills. The ones I deal with are very, very precise. Virtually no variation in thickness from one end to the other.

Not sure what lumber you are talking about, but, again my experience as stated above, rough saw will shrink 1/2 to 3/4 inch in width. I order mine 10/3/4 or 11 inch width to allow for shrinkage. 7/8 thickness will work, but, read what I wrote above.

Some wood may be usable in 3-8 months, but again, strip dried normally takes about 9 months to a year for 7/8 or 1 inch thickness.

Just my experience, Others may vary.

cchoganjr
 
#46 ·
Daniel Y.... Don't take this wrong, I am asking a serious question, because I do not know the answer. In order to get an 11 inch board, you would not be getting wood from the outside would you? Would you not have to get into the center of most of the logs to get a 1 X 11. What type boards or whatever do the mills typically cut the best wood into (2 x 10, 2 X 4 ). Enlighten me and I won't have to do the homework. HA!!!

The mill where I get my pine starts getting 1 X 3 on the outside, then as he goes in he gets 1 X 6, then he gets to where he can make 1 X 11. I always thought the absolute center of the log was the least quality.

cchoganjr
 
#54 ·
OK Barry show me what you know...
The purpose of quarter sawn lumber is to get the annular rings perpendicular to the face of the board. Now explain to me what happens when you slab a board off from the center of the log. I will do it for you. If you rip this board down the center you will have the best 2 pieces from a quarter sawn log. The annular rings get less perpendicular as you move away form center.
Do you need a diagram?
 
#51 · (Edited)
Acebird....No sarcasm here... And you and Daniel Y are way out of my league when it comes to milling logs. I don't know the first thing about it. Heck, I don't even know what quarter sawn is. (Bye the way, what is it?)

I know years ago they laid a log on the sled and it went back and forth through a fixed circular blade. Today, all the mills I do business with use a band saw and turn the log after each cut. That gives you narrow boards until you get into the center portion of the log.

I'm out of this one. I have already told you more than I know, and I don't want to display my ignorance any more.

EDITED TO ADD....... GUESS I WAS TYPING WHILE YOU WERE EXPLAINING QUARTER SAW.

cchoganjr
 
#56 · (Edited)
OK, Barry, I see Ace needs more instruction. Or something else perhaps ..... maybe there's an appropriate stick somewhere over by the mill. :D

I tried, but this is getting tiresome.

:ws:

It might be time to re-post some of those top 10 famous Ace quotes, like perhaps holding down hives in a hurricane with a bucket of water, or logs from trees of the same species grown close to each other are identical, or ......
 
#58 ·
1X can be cut from anywhere in the log...it all depends on what the sawyer wants or need to fill an order. When sawing to grade the sawyer will usually pull off a few 1X4 or 1X6 from the exterior to see what they have to work with before beginning rotation or changing up thickness. But as Cleo points out, you obviously can not yield a 1X10 from those initial skim cuts.

Actually, the wood on the outside of the log is usually of the highest quality from the perspective of defect free, straight grain, least prone to cupping (with the exception of quartersawn). It commonly has a great deal of sapwood in it which can be considered defect for some applications such as color or rot resistance.

Ace is quite right (on this one), when sawing a log "through and through" without rotating, the 2-4 cuts closest to the center yield boards of quartersawn grain.....these logs have not been quartersawn which is a much more involved process that yields all of the lumber with that grain orientation but has a great deal of labor and high wastage.

Radar, the type of sawing you described is sawing to grade. It is most commonly performed on hardwoods (as you noted) and high value logs. It is slow in that the sawyer must constantly make decisions and choices to produce the most high quality(high value) material from any given log. I really doubt any mill filling commercial orders for 1X pine is sawing thier logs to grade. they are sawing through and through or cutting cants and ripping those down and then sorting the material by grade on the tailing end of the mill.
 
#59 ·
... I really doubt any mill filling commercial orders for 1X pine is sawing thier logs to grade. they are sawing through and through or cutting cants and ripping those down and then sorting the material by grade on the tailing end of the mill.
I agree with you. But also someone sawing 1X pine as described is not interested in quartersawn wood.

Ace's original comment of:
The center of the log would be the same as quarter sawn.
is still wrong, though, without the addition of significant qualifications or exceptions. His later post referred to cutting the middle board into two pieces. Once that is done, those smaller boards are not from the center of the log anymore, they are from one side of the center. Refer to the diagram posted by BC.
 
#65 ·
the center of the log is known as the pith.
heartwood is the non living potion of the tree that has ceased to carry sap. The tree often then stores etractives into that tissue changing its color and sometimes increasing it's rot resistance. Depending on species (and growth conditions) heartwood can begin anywhere from 1/4" below the cambium to 3-4" down....its all the wood that isn't sap wood

Mills cut to fill demand. There is tremendous demand for select and wide 1X material, it is often the primary target for cuts. Time is money and keeping sawn material flowing out of the yard rather than sitting in piles is paramount to all the mill owners I know. Yes a clear 8/4 10 inch board is worth more than 2 clear 4/4 10" boards (it takes a better log to yield the thicker clear stick) but you might wait a long time sitting on a pile of 8/4 10" boards while the 4/4 goes out the door by the unit. The obvious exception to this general rule is when an extremely high value log comes in...when you get into the really rare stuff it becomes worth sitting on the investment to get maximum return....not so much with "run of the mill"
 
#68 ·
Thanks Daniel Y.. That will keep me from doing the research. Little lazy in my older years. Thanks.

I think my situation is a little different from some of the posts here. All of the mills I do business with, except cypress, are run by Amish. Most of my pine comes from an Amish mill that has just the owner, no employees except for his 12 year old son. With these Amish mills I guess I get a little special attention. For the past few years, I have put several hives, each year, in their pumpkin patches for pollination. I don't charge anything, they give me tomatoes, peppers, sausage, anything they have, and I let them use my bees. I buy pine and give them honey. I normally have 30-50 single single chamber hives that I take through the winter for sale the next Spring, I use these, for their pollination. We are a rural community, where everybody helps each other. My poplar comes from a couple of Amish Mills that are little larger, but still less than a half dozen employees. Our Amish mills are mostly specialized in either pine, poplar, or oak. I get excellent wood, because they pick it for me. I suspect this would not happen, as easily, with large computerized mills with lots of employees.

Thanks again.

cchoganjr
 
#69 ·
On the issue of heartwood. this is from a wiki on wood in general.

Heartwood and sapwood
A section of a Yew branch showing 27 annual growth rings, pale sapwood and dark heartwood, and pith (centre dark spot). The dark radial lines are small knots.

Heartwood (or duramen[7]) is wood that as a result of a naturally occurring chemical transformation has become more resistant to decay. Heartwood formation occurs spontaneously (it is a genetically programmed process). Once heartwood formation is complete, the heartwood is dead.[8] Some uncertainty still exists as to whether heartwood is truly dead, as it can still chemically react to decay organisms, but only once.[9]

Usually heartwood looks different; in that case it can be seen on a cross-section, usually following the growth rings in shape. Heartwood may (or may not) be much darker than living wood. It may (or may not) be sharply distinct from the sapwood. However, other processes, such as decay, can discolor wood, even in woody plants that do not form heartwood, with a similar color difference, which may lead to confusion.

The above had this photo as a reference the dark center wood is heartwood. The very small dark center dot is pith.
Wood Platter Plate Tree Bowl


As you can see there is more than just a little reason for the heartwood to be a better quality wood.
 
#70 · (Edited)
Looks like this calculator might be useful for estimating shrinkage?

It would appear if you're cutting dried lumber the change in size would be fairly minimal.

I'm thinking of going with about 10mm between boxes on my dried cedar. At it's driest in my area I'm figuring it's doubtful it will drop below 6mm between boxes. I'm pretty sure the bees can still move through a 6mm space.
 
#77 ·
If you have to buy 8/4 rough to yield 3/4 dressed you really have to find a new mill to do business with!
A good mill will saw 4/4 to 1 1/16-1 1/8" when measuring the "fuzzies". exact 4/4 is acceptable. Anyone who tries to pass 7/8" off is home-spun milling or soon out of business around here.
 
#78 ·
I use all mediums but I like that my boxes are finished at 1 1/16 - 1 1/8 thick up here. That being said starting out at 2" rough cut is even extreme for 5/4 finish. The boards are only 20" long. You could start at 1" rough and end at 7/8 finish for such a short board.
 
#80 ·
Our mills around here must be better than others. (all are band saw mills). I have my cypress sawed at 7/8. It is 7/8 from end to end, (10 ft normally) and will easily finish 3/4 after one year strip drying. My pine and poplar is cut 1 inch, but only because that is the standard cut for these mills. I get good wood, because, they pick it for me as they cut.

I also cut to length, before planing, and in the case of boxes with box joints, I cut the box joints before planing. If you have any blowout on the back side of the dado cut, the planer will most often take it out. A minor blowout on the inside of the box doesn't really show, but, I like for it to be gone if it does happen.

cchoganjr

cchoganjr
 
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