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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    learning lots in this thread arnt we

    good post windfall
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes


    His later post referred to cutting the middle board into two pieces.
    Requiring two cuts to eliminate the center. Resulting in three pieces.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleo C. Hogan Jr View Post
    Daniel Y.... Don't take this wrong, I am asking a serious question, because I do not know the answer. In order to get an 11 inch board, you would not be getting wood from the outside would you? Would you not have to get into the center of most of the logs to get a 1 X 11. What type boards or whatever do the mills typically cut the best wood into (2 x 10, 2 X 4 ). Enlighten me and I won't have to do the homework. HA!!!

    The mill where I get my pine starts getting 1 X 3 on the outside, then as he goes in he gets 1 X 6, then he gets to where he can make 1 X 11. I always thought the absolute center of the log was the least quality.

    cchoganjr
    Keep in mind the mill is interested in making the most money form a log as possible. Large pieces of wood typically sell for more per board foot that smaller ones. less valuable wood (Quality) is used for the smaller and thinner pieces. !X is cut from the lose quality that will stil lmake a board. Keep in mind there is wood that cannot be used from a log and that is chipped and made into OSB if it is saved at all. 2X material woudl be next then the center is cut into things like beams if it is good enough. posts if not such as 4X4 or 4X 6 etc.

    LArge sawmills are actualy ran on a computer and there are programs that will map out how to cut up any given log.

    The result is that most 1X material is the outer parts of a log where the most warp prone cupping checking knot filled wood tends to be.

    The center of a log is also known as heart wood. You can find 1X cut form heartwood but you have to look for it. and it will be pricey in comparison. You can also get things like quarter sawn which helps with the stability. A lot of furniture etc is made form quarter sawn wood. I paid over $300 for an 18 inch piece of quarter sawn 2X6 maple once. I considered that very expensive. But again it gives you an idea. how the log is cut up. where the wood comes form in the log etc. makes a big difference in the quality of the board. beekeepers simply are not going to be in the market for the higher quality pieces unless they are making an ornamental hive. There is a legitimate reason for the quality difference but it takes some investigation and some working with wood to really get the reasons clearly.

    You can find better quality 1X if you are willing to hunt through piles of boards to find them. There is such a thing as select lumber. these are boards that where picked out as better than normal quality. the price goes up. and in my opinion not enough quality increase for the price increase. Buy enough boards and you will simply develop a sight and feel for better boards. I have seen some very nice boards being sold at Home Depot at bottom of the heap prices. It happens. But you can't rely on it.
    So all things are possible but not necessarily consistent.
    Heck go to a saw mill buy an entire log and ask them to cut the entire thing into 1X material. you could probably sell off most of the outer lower quality stuff and get some of your money back and make your hives from the heart wood. It's not that they won't do it or it can't be done. It is more of a good business thing and what the typical final results are.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Nope, BC already posted one. Look at it.
    You look at it.
    https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...2aYTdKznTR5dlQ

    Quarter sawn and rift sawn are not the same thing. Look at the two end pieced of the quarter sawn diagram. The rings could be up to 45 degrees. Only the center board is 90 exactly as it is with rift sawn and the single slab board cut from the center of a log.

    Thank you very much.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #65
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    Dec 2010
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    Huntington ,VT, USA
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    the center of the log is known as the pith.
    heartwood is the non living potion of the tree that has ceased to carry sap. The tree often then stores etractives into that tissue changing its color and sometimes increasing it's rot resistance. Depending on species (and growth conditions) heartwood can begin anywhere from 1/4" below the cambium to 3-4" down....its all the wood that isn't sap wood

    Mills cut to fill demand. There is tremendous demand for select and wide 1X material, it is often the primary target for cuts. Time is money and keeping sawn material flowing out of the yard rather than sitting in piles is paramount to all the mill owners I know. Yes a clear 8/4 10 inch board is worth more than 2 clear 4/4 10" boards (it takes a better log to yield the thicker clear stick) but you might wait a long time sitting on a pile of 8/4 10" boards while the 4/4 goes out the door by the unit. The obvious exception to this general rule is when an extremely high value log comes in...when you get into the really rare stuff it becomes worth sitting on the investment to get maximum return....not so much with "run of the mill"

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Lol , "run of the mill" just got the quote right from its context, love it!
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  7. #67
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Only the center board is 90 exactly as it is with rift sawn and the single slab board cut from the center of a log.
    Yep, now change your point to fit your new information. Center of log has nothing to do with quarter sawn. A quarter sawn board will comprise the full, or near full radius of a log. Slice it (hahaha) how ever you want, QS doesn't just come from the center.

    Climbing back out of the hole.
    Regards, Barry

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Thanks Daniel Y.. That will keep me from doing the research. Little lazy in my older years. Thanks.

    I think my situation is a little different from some of the posts here. All of the mills I do business with, except cypress, are run by Amish. Most of my pine comes from an Amish mill that has just the owner, no employees except for his 12 year old son. With these Amish mills I guess I get a little special attention. For the past few years, I have put several hives, each year, in their pumpkin patches for pollination. I don't charge anything, they give me tomatoes, peppers, sausage, anything they have, and I let them use my bees. I buy pine and give them honey. I normally have 30-50 single single chamber hives that I take through the winter for sale the next Spring, I use these, for their pollination. We are a rural community, where everybody helps each other. My poplar comes from a couple of Amish Mills that are little larger, but still less than a half dozen employees. Our Amish mills are mostly specialized in either pine, poplar, or oak. I get excellent wood, because they pick it for me. I suspect this would not happen, as easily, with large computerized mills with lots of employees.

    Thanks again.

    cchoganjr

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    On the issue of heartwood. this is from a wiki on wood in general.

    Heartwood and sapwood
    A section of a Yew branch showing 27 annual growth rings, pale sapwood and dark heartwood, and pith (centre dark spot). The dark radial lines are small knots.

    Heartwood (or duramen[7]) is wood that as a result of a naturally occurring chemical transformation has become more resistant to decay. Heartwood formation occurs spontaneously (it is a genetically programmed process). Once heartwood formation is complete, the heartwood is dead.[8] Some uncertainty still exists as to whether heartwood is truly dead, as it can still chemically react to decay organisms, but only once.[9]

    Usually heartwood looks different; in that case it can be seen on a cross-section, usually following the growth rings in shape. Heartwood may (or may not) be much darker than living wood. It may (or may not) be sharply distinct from the sapwood. However, other processes, such as decay, can discolor wood, even in woody plants that do not form heartwood, with a similar color difference, which may lead to confusion.

    The above had this photo as a reference the dark center wood is heartwood. The very small dark center dot is pith.
    300px-Taxus_wood.jpg

    As you can see there is more than just a little reason for the heartwood to be a better quality wood.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  10. #70
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    Aug 2012
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    Toronto, ON Canada
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Looks like this calculator might be useful for estimating shrinkage?

    It would appear if you're cutting dried lumber the change in size would be fairly minimal.

    I'm thinking of going with about 10mm between boxes on my dried cedar. At it's driest in my area I'm figuring it's doubtful it will drop below 6mm between boxes. I'm pretty sure the bees can still move through a 6mm space.
    Last edited by Beekeeping.IsGood.ca; 01-06-2013 at 06:21 PM. Reason: used a negative when I didn't mean to.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    I paid over $300 for an 18 inch piece of quarter sawn 2X6 maple once. I considered that very expensive.
    At more than $200. a board foot for maple I would agree. That is very expensive!!!
    Like us on facebook This is the place to bee!
    Ralph

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Beekeeping.IsGood.ca View Post
    Looks like this calculator might be useful for estimating shrinkage?
    Excellent link. Just what the OP needed.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Buy 2 inch rough cut lumber direct from a mill and plane it down to 3/4". You get the better cut, and can select the grain more when you go to plane. Buy it oversize in width and edge it yourself to get an even better board.

  14. #74
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by jdmidwest View Post
    Buy 2 inch rough cut lumber direct from a mill and plane it down to 3/4".
    This approach turns 60% of the wood that you just paid good money for into worthless planer shavings! A better alternative might be to find a mill that knows how to cut the product you want to buy.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by jdmidwest View Post
    Buy 2 inch rough cut lumber direct from a mill and plane it down to 3/4".
    Rader Sidetrack is right. If you need 3/4" boards you can start with 1" rough stock. Generally anyone that saws lumber will saw a variety of thicknesses and will be able to provide 1" boards.
    Like us on facebook This is the place to bee!
    Ralph

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    This approach turns 60% of the wood that you just paid good money for into worthless planer shavings! A better alternative might be to find a mill that knows how to cut the product you want to buy.
    Note I stated "rough cut" I would still have to plane since is approx 1 1/2" give or take. And the shavings go into the horse stall. But the rough cut is cheaper than dressed and finished lumber and is worth it if you own a planer. Sometimes 1" stock is too close to the 3/4" finished size to do much planing on.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    If you have to buy 8/4 rough to yield 3/4 dressed you really have to find a new mill to do business with!
    A good mill will saw 4/4 to 1 1/16-1 1/8" when measuring the "fuzzies". exact 4/4 is acceptable. Anyone who tries to pass 7/8" off is home-spun milling or soon out of business around here.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    I use all mediums but I like that my boxes are finished at 1 1/16 - 1 1/8 thick up here. That being said starting out at 2" rough cut is even extreme for 5/4 finish. The boards are only 20" long. You could start at 1" rough and end at 7/8 finish for such a short board.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Quote Originally Posted by windfall View Post
    If you have to buy 8/4 rough to yield 3/4 dressed you really have to find a new mill to do business with!

    Yup!
    Like us on facebook This is the place to bee!
    Ralph

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Moisture content of wood and building boxes

    Our mills around here must be better than others. (all are band saw mills). I have my cypress sawed at 7/8. It is 7/8 from end to end, (10 ft normally) and will easily finish 3/4 after one year strip drying. My pine and poplar is cut 1 inch, but only because that is the standard cut for these mills. I get good wood, because, they pick it for me as they cut.

    I also cut to length, before planing, and in the case of boxes with box joints, I cut the box joints before planing. If you have any blowout on the back side of the dado cut, the planer will most often take it out. A minor blowout on the inside of the box doesn't really show, but, I like for it to be gone if it does happen.

    cchoganjr

    cchoganjr

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