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  1. #61

    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Some people will immediately say that I should follow the words of the experienced. Yeah, that is one way. How do you know if it is the only way? Do the opposite and find out.
    Ace, this explains a lot.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Ace, this explains a lot.
    explains what? That some people do not accept your expertise and do things differently? If I would follow the recommendations of experienced beekeepers (replace the queen, treat-treat-treat etc) I do not know where I would be with my bees. Ignoring recommendations brings me in my second year with 200% success so far. My 2 permitted hives went through winter last year and blooming right now (100%). Bees also produced 2 new (+100%) very active colonies via swarms. I am collecting enough honey for my family, my friends and neighbors. I am not a commercial beekeeper and has no intention to change my way of keeping the bees, but I am a good learner, so I am listening and extracting useful information when possible. The entire progress of the western civilization is based on those individuals, who do something differently.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    But they're smart about how they do it differently. They don't throw out the experience of other's, they build on it. To "do the opposite" is just silly thinking. But then that is how Ace wants to learn. So be it.
    Regards, Barry

  4. #64

    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    The idea that anyone not only ignore experienced advice but to choose to do the opposite simply to see if it is true…..is a ridiculous notion. This is why we have an educational system…to share the knowledge gained through time…instead of everybody having to learn everything the hard way. If we did it that way…we’d still be living in the dark ages or worse yet living in caves.
    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    That some people do not accept your expertise and do things differently?
    My expertise? Don’t be ridiculous…..I don’t have any expertise. I do listen to advice given by those with experience and don’t feel the need to try the opposite simply to check it out.
    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    The entire progress of the western civilization is based on those individuals, who do something differently.
    Not at all. It might be a product of the accumulated knowledge gained through the centuries i.e. people sharing their experience with those who have sense enough to listen.
    If you feel you must take the opposite tack from those experienced people who willingly share their lifes' lessons....I wish you luck.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  5. #65

    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Sergey, Ace started this thread to show off his homemade extractor. That seems fine.
    But he felt the need to add that he probably took too much honey from two of this hives. Early in the thread I asked why. Ace could easily said it was a mistake…he misjudged and in retrospect he was concerned. But he didn’t.
    Then in later posts he defended those actions based on some skewed economics and his desire to do the opposite of advice given by more experienced people.
    Are you telling us that you think his contrary idea to leave his bees short on stores was a good idea? That it is the kind of thinking that western civilization was built on?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Some people will immediately say that I should follow the words of the experienced. Yeah, that is one way. How do you know if it is the only way? Do the opposite and find out.
    Apparently this is the explanation of why Ace decides to contradict the advice offered by a knowledgeable, experienced Beesource member. (And no, I'm not referring to myself here.) Here is a great example: Peter (psfred) was offering advice on preparing green lumber for use in hive manufacturing. Peter concluded his great post with:

    Quote Originally Posted by psfred View Post
    Making bee equipment from wet wood straight from the mill is asking for warped, split, and twisted boxed that are too shallow for your frames, and it's very difficult to predict how much the wood will shrink, every single log is different!
    Ace just could not leave that comment alone, and quoting just the last 5 words (in bold print), responded with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Not from the same species of wood grown in earth close together.
    Unless each tree has an identical branch location, and same size trunk, each log WILL be different. How could a reasonable person state otherwise?

    What was Ace thinking? He puts this kind of nonsense in lots of threads.

    If you want to see the quotes in their original context, click the blue arrow.

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Sergey....Are you telling us that you think his contrary idea to leave his bees short on stores was a good idea? That it is the kind of thinking that western civilization was built on?
    We shall see - in spring Ace owe us to report was that idea good or bad? But the fact that there is only one proven way of doing beekeeping is simply wrong. For instance I just steal 6 kilos of honey from my horizontal hive and left very little to them. Bad? Why, I am doing so every 1-2 months. It is normal for me and my bees, but probably sounds unusual to you.
    Серёжа, Sergey

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    ... This is why we have an educational system…to share the knowledge gained through time…
    "Knowledge gained through time" is great, but it is not enough - we teach students to understand basic principles, so they could make conclusion based on known principles and observed facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    ... It might be a product of the accumulated knowledge gained through the centuries i.e. people sharing their experience with those who have sense enough to listen.
    Sounds right, but in reality instead steady evolution, we have jumps: Popov invented radio; Jan&Marie Curi brought two uranium pieces too close - chain nuclear reaction and overdose for both; Da Vinchi draw the helicopter; Mechnikov discovered penicillin. It is always jumps and than slow development, than another jump...
    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    If you feel you must take the opposite tack from those experienced people who willingly share their lifes' lessons....I wish you luck.
    I tell you this - we have a postdoc. He just made a discovery of the very large scale - discovery was possible exclusively because he did everything opposite to what 5 professors suggested. " Lifes' lessons" slowly moves into dogmas and slowdown the progress - it is a tragedy of old "experienced" people, when one day they discovered that their teaching is obsolete... I wish to remember about this, so my own teaching will stop before obsolete...
    Серёжа, Sergey

  9. #69
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    Jun 2010
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    Outagamie County, Wisconsin USA
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    There is a difference between taking extra honey and expecting the bees to work harder to replace it (and them being able to forage during that time) vs. leaving them with insufficient winter stores and no way to forage for their survival.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Sergey, You live in CA and your bees may be finding food today for all I know. Ace lives in NY. There won’t be anything for his bees until spring.
    Many inventions, the result of creative minds and hard work are fine. Most are built on the knowledge passed to the inventor by experienced people. Otherwise we would still be reinventing the wheel……over and over and over again.
    If you think it is wise to totally ignore good advice, given by experienced, well intentioned people….so be it. How can I argue with that? And so I won’t.
    Good luck to you Sergey.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Quote Originally Posted by cerezha View Post
    We shall see - in spring Ace owe us to report was that idea good or bad?
    People doing research kill bees in large numbers on a regular basis. Is that good or bad? If my hives die I will most certainly have photos so you can all argue over whether they died from starvation, mites or what every. We will see how much agreement we can get here on Beesource.
    I did not say I took all their honey. I said I may have taken too much, a whopping 11 pounds from three hives. How do I answer the words of experience that I should have taken 80 pounds from each?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    The words of experience are, you shouldn't have taken any.
    Regards, Barry

  13. #73

    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Personally Ace, I really don't care what you do with your bees. I was responding to your statement that folks should do the opposite of the advice given by experienced people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    People doing research kill bees in large numbers on a regular basis. Is that good or bad
    It is hard for me to compare killing bees to collect research data and starving a hive so you can harvest an extra gallon of honey.
    I, for one, have absolutely no interest in springtime photos of your deadouts.

    They’re your bees….kill ‘em if you like.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Ace, if you are referring to me, I did not say you should take 80 pounds of honey from any hive in the condition it/they were in at the time. It seemed you were inferring that. I suggest you reread my post. Basically, I was saying if you had done things differently, you could have one/three hives that this year or next would have produced quite a bit more....possibly 80 to 100 pounds each. What ever is EXTRA is okay to take....whether it is 33 pounds or 80 pounds......but it should only be the EXTRA. Do not twist things that people state to make your case. BTW, it is post #57....

    Fini ! Done !

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Ace, carrots looked alright, but you may want to increase the sand content where you grow them, you'll get a much better product. Extractor wasn't bad, but I'm not one for home made stuff when I can support the industry for a much better product, doing stuff on the cheap isn't worth it in my opinion. I'm glad you had fun with it though and it worked out for you. I'm not bashing doing stuff on the cheap, I just believe in supporting the industry so they can continue to offer quality products and bigger selections.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Previous to working in the medical field I spent a lot of time working for OEM's. It would be hard for me to fathom that any OEM for bee keeper processing equipment would be able to see a drop in sales volume from a back yard beek making his own equipment. They don't need my support.
    Let me explain something:
    An OEM wants to sell their equipment to someone that is going to use it, abuse it and wear it out. Not to someone who could barely scratch the polished surfaces. They make their money on parts and repairs and they are building their equipment to last under normal industry usage. If a large number of back yard beeks have this equipment and they give up the hobby that kills their future sales. If the back yard beeks make their own equipment and gives up, the equipment goes in the land fill for the most part. Doesn't affect their sales or their business.

    Why would Jake, offer me a DVD if he thought I could hurt his business? He knows I can't.
    you may want to increase the sand content where you grow them, you'll get a much better product.
    We have one garden that is on top of sand. We have been using it for squash, pumpkins and gourds. The bad part about putting carrots there is the wood chucks will get them. It is worth a try though.
    That being said, our carrots are unbelievably sweet. We don't go for pretty.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Those look like Kuroda's, and they are good. They don't have to be pretty, but if you get the right soil conditions, your yield will go up as they won't be so nubby. Growing nice looking carrots can be a challenge though.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    ...If you think it is wise to totally ignore good advice, given by experienced, well intentioned people….so be it. How can I argue with that? And so I won’t. Good luck to you Sergey.
    Dan, many thanks for reply. I am in difficult situation, because I basically completely agree that experience should be passes to new generations and promote the progress. This is why education is very important - I agree with you! Ideally, yes, people should learn from their mentors and gradually collect knowledge, expertise and wisdom. Eventually, they should have enough of both to produce something meaningful, some invention etc. Learning from experience of mentor is a "classical" way to learn, but it has flaws. One flaw is how you know that this particular mentor is right in his/her teaching? Hitler is an example - he was an effective "mentor" for many... Many religious "mentors" also controversial. One way to learn what is true and what is wrong is to try a few different approaches and see, which one works better to you. As more one learns, more controversy will be discovered in "teaching" - what to do with this? Again, try a few different approaches to see which one is right. NOW, what is right? Right what you like, or what your mentor likes? I guess, the only way to have some taste what is right is "error-and-try" approach.

    I was born in Caucasus Mountains (well, I am true "caucasian"). This area has the whole culture of deep respect of elders. In small remote villages this culture persists even nowadays. They have sort of "council of elders" - they gather in one place and drink tea most of the time. If there is any issue, one could come to their gathering and respectfully ask for advise. Advise may be given or not. My point there is that one need to ask for wisdom. In terms of our discussion my point would be that really wise and experienced person would not try to implement his/her knowledge to others if nobody ask for that. In this thread, Ace did not ask for any advise. He just stated what is going on with his honey - he extracted it using his home-made extractor. Why on the earth, such statement cause desire to teach Ace what to do with his bees?
    Серёжа, Sergey

  19. #79

    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    Sergey, I’ve always admired those who were brave enough to leave their homeland and find a new life. It takes courage to leave what is familiar and go somewhere that the language and culture are so very different…to leave behind family and friends. I respect that courage in you.

    I found Ace’s photos and description of his homemade extractor impressive.
    My only concern was his statement that he probably took too much honey from two of his hives and that they might not survive because of it. And I asked him why he did it.
    Ace, in my opinion, has a history of disputing advice offered by other (not necessarily me) experienced, well meaning beekeepers. So, when he suggested that people do the opposite of that advice…it explained a lot to me. And I said so.
    You came to his defense and I understand that. I hope you realize that I don’t mean any ill for Ace but I am afraid that his approach to beekeeping may earn him some painful lessons. I guess those are his to learn.
    I appreciate your thoughtful reply and wish you only the best.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Finally extracted our honey

    beemandan - "I hope you realize that I don’t mean any ill for Ace but I am afraid that his approach to beekeeping may earn him some painful lessons. I guess those are his to learn."

    I'm glad, very glad actually that you have clarified your position.

    I don't know any of you personally. I check into Beesource when the heat of summer or the rain drives me in from my outdoor work. I find many of the discussions interesting. There is always something to learn.
    What I don't like are the responses which come across to me as bullying, quite nasty. ACe is often at the receiving end of such comments. We don't need them. It turns me off the dicussion and indeed Beesource.
    If I give a response - firm but not rude the moderator removes the post.
    Let's stick to the issues and not attack personalities. Thanks!

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