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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,198

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    How much interest is there in people actually purchasing mills? I've gotten some emails from China from one manufacturer, still pricey.

    I have an idea (that I won't share here, sorry) for an easy way to mass produce mills, but it would require some upfront investment that I'm not sure the market can support. If you could buy a mill for $500, would you spend the money?

    deknow
    I have heard tell of mills like Barrys' being sent into Third World Countrys back in the 70s and 80s. I believe Root Inc carried them in their catalog. I bet there are a bunch of them out there if people could find them. Maybe Root still has some in their warehouse. Check w/ Kim Flottum.

    Maybe Dadant has some.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,187

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Just so others don't get confused by your nonsense. You turn a work-piece in a lathe, you mill stock in a milling machine and you burn material in an EDM machine.
    You must be right, Ace, I am just imagining the device below.


    http://www.amazon.com/Separate-Motor.../dp/B008YGDARM

    Do you see a headstock? Do you see a tailstock? Is it a lathe? Can you mill a workpiece mounted on the lathe? Of course!



    However, I will concede that given an unlimited choice of tools, this is not the tool I would choose to produce foundation rollers.
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 12-17-2012 at 09:48 AM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,591

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Geesh, what a total derailment of the thread.

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,459

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Definitively not done on a lathe.
    How would you get the raised cell walls out of the tool when you are making the foundation.
    Did you see raised cell walls on my machine?
    Regards, Barry

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Belews Creek, NC, USA
    Posts
    331

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    CNC milling would require an indexer capable of rotating in 1/100 of a degree increments and the inside corners of the cells would have a radius relative to the diameter of the cutter (endmill)...obviously not available back then. My thoughts would be an embossing operation similar to knurling on a lathe.

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,546

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Did you see raised cell walls on my machine?
    It does look like the rolls have a cell wall impression hexagonal too. Because the rolls are round the walls can't get to high without breaking them when the hex part of the tool comes out of mesh. Is the material between the rolls on the first pic paper or actually wax? I don't see any walls in the impression.
    How does this machine compensate for stock thickness?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,546

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Belewsboy View Post
    My thoughts would be an embossing operation similar to knurling on a lathe.
    If they could make the embossing tool for the tool they could make the embossing tool for wax.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Belews Creek, NC, USA
    Posts
    331

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Make one tool which would produce dozens of wax roll dies.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,459

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    It does look like the rolls have a cell wall impression hexagonal too.
    Nope, no cell walls.

    Is the material between the rolls on the first pic paper or actually wax?
    Paper.

    How does this machine compensate for stock thickness?
    The thumb screw at the bottom on each side.
    Regards, Barry

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,187

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Does anyone know how they were originally made in the mid 1800s?
    Its amazing what you can find in Beesource archives! The following partial quote is from ABC and XYZ of BEEKEEPING, A.I. Root – published in 1891 – Pages 62-72

    Mr. J. Mehring, of Frankinthal, Germany, if I am correct, seems to have been the original inventor. For nearly 20 years the matter seems to have slumbered, although different ones at different times, among whom was our friend Wagner, took it up, made some improvements, and dropped it again. The sheets made in both England and Germany had no side-walls, but simply indentations. Mr. Wagner added shallow side-walls, making it much more like natural comb. Until recently it was all made with a pair of plates; even yet the Given press is preferred by some (see elsewhere); but it did not require much wisdom to decide that such an article, if wanted in large quantities, should be rolled out by machinery.

    In the latter part of 1875 I talked with a friend of mine who is quite an artist in the way of fine mechanical work and machinery, and told him what I thought was wanted. The result was that he made a machine that would roll out a continuous sheet, with very fair side-walls of wax, and superior to anything ever made. Indeed, so perfect was the workmanship of the rolls, that, even though fifteen years have passed, nothing yet has been constructed which fully equals the foundation from them. Mr. A. Washburn, the mechanic who did the work, made the rolls by stamping – an operation slow, laborious, and consequently expensive. This made the price of these machines from $100 to $125 apiece – a figure beyond the reach of the average bee-keeper, and even of most supply-dealers.

    In consequence of the call for mills for less money, Mr. Chas. Olm, of Fond du Lac, Wis., invented an automatic machine which cut with a set of knives the embossed surface of the rolls. It was thus made possible for us to manufacture foundation-mills at a price from one-fourth to one-fifth of those first made.

    The complete document is here:
    http://www.beesource.com/point-of-vi...dation-part-1/
    If you want more, here is another related article:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=VWk...%20wax&f=false
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 12-17-2012 at 01:36 PM. Reason: second source
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,594

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I think I'll continue using small cell foundation...

    I'm just not convinced that LARGE CELL has any advantages.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,208

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    >if honey bees naturally form a smaller cell, why is most foundation designed to encourage larger cells? What is the advantage of larger cells?

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnatural...tm#baudoux1893

    >>i like michael bush's tag line:
    >>"everything works it you let it"
    >Yes; If you let your bees die, they die.

    Odd. Mine did not die...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,395

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >if honey bees naturally form a smaller cell, why is most foundation designed to encourage larger cells? What is the advantage of larger cells?

    http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnatural...tm#baudoux1893

    >>i like michael bush's tag line:
    >>"everything works it you let it"
    >Yes; If you let your bees die, they die.

    Odd. Mine did not die...
    I think we can all agree that there are oddities with varroa that arent fully understood. I also think it is quite fair to state that there have been successes in being treatment free and also failures and that no one fully understands why that is.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #94
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    966

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I also think wee can all agree that it is quite fair to state that there have been successes in using chemical and drug treatments and also failures and that no one fully understands why that is.

    Whether one treats, or whether one doesn't, some lose hives, and some don't.

    It's almost as if everything works if you let it.

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,707

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    As Barry knows from the part I made him , there is a middle ground covered by both lathes and mills, where the work is indexed, or moved in conjunction with another axis. I often turn things like threads on my mill.

    That aside, the image I saw of Mr. Olm's machine was of a cylinder that could be indexed, and a set of knives above that where angled to cut the cell bottoms.

    It should also be noted that the material in the final product of Mr. Olm's mill is soft, and appears to be similar to Linotype material.

    yes, I am collection pieces to cut a foundation mill to reproduce the size generated by the one my great Grandfather had(now in Cassville museum).
    Crazy Roland

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,012

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    for those that have never seen a lathe cut threads check this out.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q_q53wsyHU
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,546

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    I often turn things like threads on my mill.
    Of course, a machine doesn't know what it is, for instance a shop smith. But the operations done in any machine are defined. If you are milling threads then it is a milling operation and if you are turning threads then it is a lathe operation. What is the difference? When you turn something the workpiece rotates into a stationary tool and when you mill something the tool moves and usually the workpiece is stationary or very very slowly indexing. It is not called turning when a milling cutter is removing the material. When you attach a grinding wheel to a lathe and remove material that way it is referred to as grinding not turning in a lathe.
    You are not going to "turn" and embossed pattern in a lathe.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,187

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    You are not going to "turn" and embossed pattern in a lathe.


    This knurling operation, embossing a pattern on the workpiece, while turning on the lathe is just imaginary, apparently.

    The photo is from a Dupont course on "Basic Engine Lathe: Knurling on the Lathe (Online Course)". I guess Ace is correct, and Dupont is wrong.


    More on the image, and the course at this link:
    http://ecom.training.dupont.com/BEL0...-training.aspx

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,638

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    That is done on a lathe, but it's not turning....it's knurling.....deforming, not cutting. You can also spin on a lathe, which is also not turning.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    havana fl
    Posts
    1,358

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Large cell beekeeping does not work beekeepers do the work.
    Im really not that serious

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