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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Physics?
    That would explain it. Only physics I have studied where on my girlfriend.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Hmmm, tmi.

    I bet it has something to do w/ changing something thick into something thinner by pressure. This can be seen to a lesser degree when rolling dough out on the counter w/ a rolling pin. I bet what you observed had something to do w/ two rollers. But I am a simpleminded person. A gift.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I've been told Dee and hubby actually made their own mill is that correct?
    Not correct. They did mess around with a book style press made of fiberglass, but the roller type they've used for many years was made by another guy.
    Regards, Barry

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    OK. I was thinking wow! How would they have made such a thing!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    It would be interesting to know how such things are made. What th process of making rollers made in such a way as to make beeswax foundation. The making of the rollers themselves. I would imagine making such a thing w/ great accuracy might be more difficult than making a Frederick Remington original cast figure. Does anyone know how they were originally made in the mid 1800s?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Yes it wouldn't just be getting a round blank and stamping it either. As the cell impressions work their way around the roller, they have to join seemlessly with the first ones when they get all the way around.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Yes it wouldn't just be getting a round blank and stamping it either. As the cell impressions work their way around the roller, they have to join seemlessly with the first ones when they get all the way around.
    I believe math may have been involved.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Oh yes I'm sure it's all very simple to those who know how.

    But I'm just a simple ex beekeeper.

    No doubt someone who knows will come along and explain it & I'll be glad to admire the intracacies involved.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I believe Roland could weigh in on this one. If I remember right, they're made on a lathe with special milling attachments. Cutting all the rhombuses would give me a nightmare.
    Regards, Barry

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Must be quite a setup on a lathe, specially if slightly raised cell walls are wanted.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I don't see how a lathe would be involved. Look at yours Barry, don't they appear cast?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    How much interest is there in people actually purchasing mills? I've gotten some emails from China from one manufacturer, still pricey.

    I have an idea (that I won't share here, sorry) for an easy way to mass produce mills, but it would require some upfront investment that I'm not sure the market can support. If you could buy a mill for $500, would you spend the money?

    deknow

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I would imagine making such a thing w/ great accuracy might be more difficult than making a Frederick Remington original cast figure. Does anyone know how they were originally made in the mid 1800s?
    There are two process that I know of for making rotary dies, CNC milling and EDM. These are specialized machines and very precise. Yes Oldtimer when you come around the other side it has to be a perfect match. This is the problem with the pitch dia of the gears.

    one example:
    http://www.midwayrotary.com/
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Must be quite a setup on a lathe, specially if slightly raised cell walls are wanted.
    Definitively not done on a lathe.
    How would you get the raised cell walls out of the tool when you are making the foundation.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I heard a story from Kirk Webster that described an old machine he saw being used to make rollers at AI Root (it was something like the grandson of the guy that invented/built the machine still came in from time to time to make some, as no one else knew how to operate it...and he was an old guy!)...rather soft rollers, and a machine that chased the impression in...where the chasing tools were indexed to everything else (but I believe hammered by hand). I think there is a description in the old ABC volumes (should be able to find them on google books).

    There is probably a bit of a slop factor available by chasing in a bit deeper (this isn't like cutting gears, it is more like slow motion, single point knurling).

    deknow

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Definitively not done on a lathe.
    How would you get the raised cell walls out of the tool when you are making the foundation.
    Read Barry's comment, Engineer Ace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I believe Roland could weigh in on this one. If I remember right, they're made on a lathe with special milling attachments.
    The workpiece is mounted on a lathe, but the workpiece only turns when needed to move to the next row of cells.

    I am not saying that this is how it was don in the 1800s, but it certainly is viable these days. Inddeed, the CNC option you spoke of in another post could utilize this concept.
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 12-17-2012 at 09:04 AM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I would imagine making such a thing w/ great accuracy might be more difficult than making a Frederick Remington original cast figure. Does anyone know how they were originally made in the mid 1800s?
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    There are two process that I know of for making rotary dies, CNC milling and EDM.
    Come on! Since you are quoting Mark, presumably you think you are responding to Mark's question. CNC and EDM most certainly not available when the first foundation rollers were developed.



    For those not into machining, CNC is essentially computer controlled machining, and EDM is electronic discharge machining, similar in concept to using a big spark to etch metal. EDM also effectively needs a computer controller.
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 12-17-2012 at 09:25 AM. Reason: explain terms
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    I would imagine making such a thing w/ great accuracy might be more difficult than making a Frederick Remington original cast figure. Does anyone know how they were originally made in the mid 1800s?
    I do not "know" how they how produced in the 1800s.

    But, a foundation roller is not all that different from an engraved (or etched) cylinder used in a rotary letterpress or "steel engraving" printing process. I would "expect" that similar technologies in the 1800s could be used to produce both.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engraving

    [Flame suit on]
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I'm not going to bother copying anything, but my 1888 edition of ABC of Beekeeping has all of the info, including an engraving of a machine to make rollers (probably the one I described) and details of different methods that were used in the early days. You should be able to find it on google books, its under the heading of "comb foundation"

    deknow

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    I am not saying that this is how it was don in the 1800s, but it certainly is viable these days. Inddeed, the CNC option you spoke of in another post could utilize this concept.
    Just so others don't get confused by your nonsense. You turn a work-piece in a lathe, you mill stock in a milling machine and you burn material in an EDM machine. Specialized CNC machines have the ability to mill and turn but if you are milling it is not a lathe operation.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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