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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    3,178

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    If you read the ramblings of the founder of the small cell movement daily, she comes across as a wack job.
    Is this a technical term? You made me laugh thank you.
    No reflection on my part as to LC or SC. I just found it humorous that sometimes you just have to call it the way you see it.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,232

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    This was very well written up in the bee journals between 1900 and 1920. The first foundation mills made ranged from 4.8 to 5.0. As beekeeping modernized, many well meaning inventors decided that larger foundation cells would produce larger bees which could carry more nectar and would therefore make more honey. They were right on part of that, larger foundation does indeed result in larger bees. Eventually, the bees adapted to the foundation and selective pressures resulted in genetic changes so the bees are bigger. If you try to put these genetically larger bees on small cell, you get the comb messes that most beekeepers wind up with when they try to convert to small cell.

    Is there an advantage to large cell comb? None that I have found after 7 years of running both sizes. Do I have a preference? Yes, I marginally like the small cell foundation because my bees overwinter just a tad better. But I should caveat that by saying that I am running 31 mm frames with 11 frames per deep brood chamber. This affects both cluster size and honey storage so there are a lot of internal cluster dynamics that are different with my bees.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    dar, do you run 11 frames in both your large and small cell colonies?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Salem, Oregon
    Posts
    1,021

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i like michael bush's tag line:

    "everything works it you let it"
    Yes; If you let your bees die, they die.
    I have exactly ONE hive more than you.
    That makes my opinion beyond question.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    980

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    You are attributing higher levels of hive loss to only cell size differences.
    Nope, I'm not.
    I am parodying a rather tired refrain that comes up so often in this cell size discussion. (As I think the OP probably is as well).
    Someone invariably asserts they won't believe small cell works unless there's a paper that says so.
    I think the folks who are doing well on small (or large, in the case of the parody) cell pretty much eliminate the need for such a paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    If you read the ramblings of the founder of the small cell movement daily, she comes across as a wack job. I would no longer rely on her teachings than I would on that of Jim Jones, founder of the Peoples Temple. Several contributors on this thread are her disciples.
    Ad hominem arguments seldom persuade.

    I started using small cells before I ever heard of the lady you're speaking so poorly of.
    I like them, for a number of reasons.
    Just like some people like ugly boxes.
    But I don't try to make people use them, anymore than the ugly box guy tries to make people use ugly boxes.

    I think we take some stuff too stinkin' seriously sometimes!

    I'm glad you're on the forum Ollie.
    It's fun having you and stuff like "your" winter challenge around.
    Plus, who else whips bee bee trees?

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
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    3,178

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    Yes; If you let your bees die, they die.
    Actually I have seen for myself that this is not necessarily true. Some of the first beehives I ever saw had been left to die. After about 10 years they where anything but dead. they attacked in mass when we got about 10 feet from them. Can't say much more about them than that. But they definitely where not dead. I don't think they would have been AHB either. this was in the mid 70's in south east Kansas. I don't think the AHB had made it across the US border yet.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,162

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The three different directions across ten cells measure: 54mm, 50mm, 50mm. Interesting that they didn't get all three equal.
    Can you explain what the third direction is?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,162

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Is there an advantage to large cell comb? None that I have found after 7 years of running both sizes. Do I have a preference? Yes, I marginally like the small cell foundation because my bees overwinter just a tad better.
    Didn't you just say there is no difference?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,716

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Can you explain what the third direction is?
    Have you ever looked at a compass? There are 360 degrees represented on a compass. Each of those is a different direction.


    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,306

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I believe that the three directions refered to are horizontal, vertical, and diagonal.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,661

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Regards, Barry

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    interesting the the dimension varies along those axes.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,627

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Great, this is all we need, a lead in to a debate about housel positioning.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,306

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Which dimension was the one not the same? Barry? Just curious.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  15. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,661

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    I was just thinking about that. I'll double check, but my guess is it's the direction that is a right angle to the rollers. That is the only direction that could change as you turn the rollers. I know Dee would talk about the wax stretching as it went through the rollers and distorting that side of the cells, but I used a piece of paper. Perhaps there is that much 'play' in the gearing that accounts for this. There is no way I can measure the imprint on the actual rollers.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,758

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    There is no way I can measure the imprint on the actual rollers.
    Could you "ink" the roller and use paper? Either running it through the rollers (cardboard?) or simply rubbing the paper down with a finger?
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  17. #37
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    10,162

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I know Dee would talk about the wax stretching as it went through the rollers and distorting that side of the cells, but I used a piece of paper. Perhaps there is that much 'play' in the gearing that accounts for this. There is no way I can measure the imprint on the actual rollers.
    I asked the question because I assumed the "mill" was a round cylinder much the same as a rotary die. If this is the case the impression is dependent on the gearing and is usually smaller than the physical dimensions of the tool. Typically the tool rotates faster than the travel of the web so the impression comes out smaller in the direction of the web. If you want the impression to be equal to the web you take the gears out and rely on the friction of the bears to drive the roll. You would have to let the tool manufacturer know what your intentions are.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #38
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    Mar 2011
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    Utica, NY
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    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    Could you "ink" the roller and use paper? Either running it through the rollers (cardboard?) or simply rubbing the paper down with a finger?
    Just roll the tool over a flat surface with a carbon copy between the tool and the flat surface. I would use a flat piece of sanded plywood so you don't damage the impressions. If you are looking for precision you measure it with a camera system. For beekeeping, just eyeball it with a scale.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #39
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    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    3,758

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    you take the gears out and rely on the friction of the bears to drive the roll.
    I don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Just roll the tool over a flat surface with a carbon copy between the tool and the flat surface. I would use a flat piece of sanded plywood so you don't damage the impressions. If you are looking for precision you measure it with a camera system. For beekeeping, just eyeball it with a scale.
    I don't think anyone is going to disassemble their foundation roller to take measurements.
    BeeCurious
    5 hives and 8 nucs................... Trying to think inside the box...

  20. #40
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,162

    Default Re: Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    I don't understand.
    show me what your machine looks like.



    I don't think anyone is going to disassemble their foundation roller to take measurements.
    Well then just put a carbon copy over the roll and rock a board around the roll for a segment. How many impressions do you want to measure?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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