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Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?

51K views 245 replies 40 participants last post by  rwurster 
#1 ·
Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work?
I have only used sc foundation but if there is proof that LC is better I might be willing to experiment. ;)

If there's no clear advantage I'll just stick with what I've been doing... :)
 
#134 ·
My bees did okay on "large cell". It seems to me it works, inasmuch as bees will draw it, store stuff in it, raise brood in it, and all that. Occasionally they die in it - I had a few winter chills or starve-outs over the years.

I've heard similar things about small cell.

One thing I have not heard too much about is the in-between cell; since it seems mostly to serve as a temporary stepping stone when training bees who are accustomed to the larger stuff to start using small cell, I don't think many people have done studies (formal or otherwise) about how this in-between stuff actually works as a full-time comb size in its own right. I'm a little curious about it, actually.
 
#138 ·
hopefully mb will give his own interpretation to you shinbone.

it's been a while since i made that post, but i think what was going through my head at the time was that it appears that folks are generally being successful with bees while using a wide variety of methods. roland made a good comment recently that the bees will eventually adapt to the beekeeper. my opinion is that bees are pretty good at adapting to a variety of situations, and i have learned that they seem to do better if i stay out of their way as much as possible. that said i am keeping bees for a purpose and don't feel guilty about intervening as needed, but i'm sure i was guilty of messing around with them too much in the beginning. the learning curve for me involved avoiding not setting them back any more than necessary by my intervention.
 
#139 ·
>>"everything works it you let it"
>What does this mean?

The Tao is the flow of the universe. Everything in the universe has a flow to it. Fighting that is a lot of work and seldom very effective. Getting into the flow is usually much more effective. "The master accomplishes more and more by doing less and less until finally he accomplishes everything by doing nothing"--Laozi, Tao Te Ching.

Or Brother Adam's slightly different angle:
"Perfection in beekeeping is not found in a multiplicity of appliances, but in simplicity and the elimination of everything not absolutely essential" --Brother Adam

In the context of natural cell size, if you let the bees build what they want and need they will take care of things. If you trick them into building something you think they want and need things often go badly.

"Everything works if you let it" --Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick (from the song and from a sign on a fix-it shop in the movie "Roadie")
 
#144 ·
If you trick them into building something you think they want and need things often go badly.
Not quite sure I agree with that statement. I've been keeping bees more than a few years, and I can say with equal certainty that none of my loses resulted from me tricking bee to build comb off foundation. I will certainly admit to early on having bad beekeeping skills, inability to identify and make corrective actions at the appropriate times, and a bunch of other less than perfect beekeeping, but loses due foundation choice, no. It may have worked wonders for you, but to suggest that things will go badly otherwise is (I believe) an overstatement.

Does "Large Cell" Beekeeping work? Yes. At least for me in my yards, in my location, with my bees, and using my practices.
 
#142 ·
Well, meh. I don't put much automatic stock in ancient Chinese masters and their musings about the Force, I'm afraid.

But, Laozi gets a pass from me on this concept just because it's so widely-known and intuitive. it is simple logic: the more complicated you make a system, the more likely it is to fail - simply because there are so many more things in it which can do the failing. Every new number you add to the equation ups the chance that everything won't all add up the same way by the end. So you like to add as few as possible.

Or, as the very not-so-ancient civil engineer Alfred Holt explained in 1877 (though discussing ship design), "It is found that anything that can go wrong at sea generally does go wrong sooner or later...sufficient stress can hardly be laid on the advantages of simplicity."

A bit more recent is Kelly Johnson of Lockheed, who seems to have been the first to write "Keep it simple, stupid!"
 
#145 ·
My quotes are very eclectic.

“Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.”
― Bruce Lee

I'm as likely to quote Robert Heinlein or Helen Keller or Thomas Jefferson or Sun Tzu. Truth is truth regardless of its source. The Tao Te Ching is not about something completely mystical. It's about the basis of how everything works. It's about many paradoxes presented so you can see past them to the truth. We often go with our first reaction to something and it accomplishes the opposite of what we wanted because we didn't look past it to the unintended consequences. Laozi points out many of these fallacies. I would assume that ancient books that made it this far into the present did so because they were full of wisdom...

As far as simpleness:
"It is not a daily increase, but a daily decrease. Hack away at the inessentials.”
― Bruce Lee
 
#156 ·
My quotes are very eclectic.

“Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it.”
― Bruce Lee

I'm as likely to quote Robert Heinlein or Helen Keller or Thomas Jefferson or Sun Tzu.
Antoine de Saint Exupéry tells us that "perfection is achieved not when there is nothing else to add, but nothing left to take away".

My favorite would be William of Occam's version, "Frustra fit per plura, quod potest fieri per pauciora" - to wit: it's useless to use more for what can be done with less; which subsequently became a very central tenet in scientific thinking sometimes called "Occam's razor".
 
#147 ·
Must be winter.

If you were to mill a flat sheet, roll it up and cast into the negative you would have two shortened diagonal legs and the original top and bottom lengths.

Having the opposite sides of a rolled foundation sheet mis matched as a result of out of alignment gears would drive the machinist crazy and not bother the bees at all.

Warped cells are the norm. I am going against small cells and large cells and starting the warped cell movement !
 
#149 · (Edited)
Rite cell is my favorite for ease of assembly and reliably built cell size. If you are unsure, why not try something like this? A partial sheet. They can build worker cell in the center and what ever they want on the sides.



Glue in a piece of skewer to lock foundation in the center until they start working it and give the bees a guide to draw out foundationless part. Assembly if these modified frames is quick and easy.Something that needs to be considered if you have to build hundreds at a time.



Here's how they draw it out. This is obviously a frame housing a cut out, but you can see how they work it.



Same frame after they've worked it:


This is what I get with my deep frames. Too big to go foundationless, I hate wires and thin foundation.
I cut my rite cell with my miter saw so I use 2/3 for deep standard frames and the small 1/3 piece fits my half deep frames for mating nucs perfectly. Stretched my foundation costs efficiently. That's the main reason I am doing it this way this year. I hate the cost, but love the reliable results of rite cell and it's stability in a deep frame.

In three years, I've seen no evidence small cell or screened bottom boards have any effect on mite loads. I'm in a Northern climate with Carnie Hybrids.

Correctly timed brood breaks are you best bet in my opinion. Correctly timed means there is No capped brood in the hive for a long enough period of time for the colony to exhibit grooming behavior. Placing a virgin or capped cell in the hive may not give the hive enough time to naturally reduce mite load. But that is another thread. (But I'll give you a hint: There is probably a reason Michael Bush likes walk away nucs)
 
#164 ·
I think not.
There is a LOT of wisdom in those three words, though maybe not the wisdom you expect.

The underlying question of this discussion revolves around which cell size is best for beekeeping. I used large cell for 30 years and small cell since 2005. In my opinion, either one works effectively for beekeeping, but there are small advantages to small cell in treatment free beekeeping. If I were on the treatment bandwagon, large cell would be fine. Since I am treatment free and since I use 11 frame broodnests, I feel that small cell gives a spring buildup advantage as well as a very slight advantage against varroa mites.
 
#165 ·
There is a LOT of wisdom in those three words, though maybe not the wisdom you expect.

Nice - indirect, but not too constructive. Nice to meet you too, whoever you are.

"Large cell" and small cell both work. Claims that any one is intrinsically better than another are so far exclusively anecdotal, with plenty of claims supporting situational success in each but nothing that exclusively supports one over the other in general. The actual evidence says merely that bees will use either and will typically thrive if properly cared for otherwise.

If you're already using small-cell, I can think of no compelling reason to switch to "large cell" outside of leisurely experimentation. If you're already using "large cell", same.
 
#167 · (Edited)
Beautiful, but deep frames with no support are a disaster waiting to happen



This comb would be fine if I never touched it for a year. (Give it time to toughin up) Not possible to do when you get into your hives on a regular basis.



I tried several things to support comb without foundation...This was not the result I was looking for however. This could be a good way to support comb in a deep frame. I admit, I did not fiddle with it for too long and the bees that drew it out on were recently purchased Italians out of Ca. , not the Carni hybrids I have now. Don't be aftaid to try it for yourself, You may get better results.



You could do this too, without the cell bar, if you have time to fiddle. You'll probably get natural large cell on top filled with honey..worker cell on the bottom half of frame. There was no flow on when I used this frame. Hopefully next year I'll have a photo of how they drew it out.



Casualties of a deep foundationless frame with no support



Here's what I did with the honey that fell out of the deep frame above. Made a few feed frames for mini mating nucs.



Heres a photo to remind new beekeepwers what the natural layout of a well fed broodnest frame looks like.

 
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