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  1. #161
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    There is a whole lot of complaining going on...but tell me....who else (anywhere) is doing anything to secure a premium price for a premium product FOR THE FREAKING PRODUCER? Anyone? Really? No one?

    Jim wants to have the high quality of his honey be recognized...but the people that buy it and market it don't...they want to pay commodity prices for it....well under $2/lb? That sounds like a great system

    What everyone else is advocating is the status quo....where good quality honey is sold as a commodity in competition with crappy honey. You are all welcome to that market model if you like....a race to the bottom...the most profit is made by buying the lowest quality honey possible and marketing it as the highest....and there is really no mechanism or force to stop this.

    If you have a different vision...then I say follow it. Keeping bees without treatments is important to me (whether or not they are "small cell" isn't). I've got a business model that allows me to spend my time supporting exactly what I believe is important, support others that share my vision, and we've been lucky enough to find a customer base that is willing to support our vision. I'm not sure what you all should be doing, but I'm pretty happy doing what I'm doing, and I feel just fine about it.

    deknow

  2. #162
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    I don't really know what you are asking. "Superior" in what way? "Superior" to what?

    deknow

  3. #163
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    fair enough. like i said, i have no idea what you say or don't say to your customers.

    i don't know what educating customers 'truthfully and accurately' means.

    so, let's get past the claiming and implying, and cut straight to the chase.

    dean, yes or no, do you think honey harvested from treatment free bees is superior to honey harvested from bees that have been treated, and should it be marketed to consumers as superior?
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I don't really know what you are asking. "Superior" in what way? "Superior" to what?

    deknow
    superior in 'any way' to 'honey harvested from bees that have been treated'
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  4. #164
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You have posted often enough about how you "educate" your customers.
    And I am always honest and truthful.

    Seems all honey except what you sell is painted with the same brush. You've even posted that if somebody elses honey is perfectly good, but he doesn't actually take the time to differentiate himself, then he, in your words, "deserves what he gets", when you "educate" your customers.
    Wait a second....I'm responsible for my own actions. How someone else retails or wholesales their honey is their own business. It's absurd to imply that I should have anything to do with how some other beekeeper gets paid by someone else.

    What do you think I should be doing to make sure that other beekeepers get a fair price for their honey? Why is it any of my business what someone else is willing to sell their honey for?

    deknow

  5. #165
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,044

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    ...and I am pretty happy where I am right now as well. No complaints about the price I am getting at all. Dean's assumption that my honey isnt bringing above market price is only an assumption. My quibble is putting "treatment free" honey on a pedestal when there is really no proof that the same result cant be achieved through other means. Does anyone reading this truly believe that the guy who used Formic or Hopguard this past fall when his honey supers were in storage is really producing a product that isnt every bit as good as the guy who dosent? Where is the proof? I applaud the ethical standards that Dean and Ramona take in marketing their product. I wish all honey was marketed in such a manner I would just like to point out that talking down the competition does not make their product one bit better and that treatment free beekeeping isnt the only means to achieving a pure product.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  6. #166
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    good post jim.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  7. #167
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    What do you think I should be doing to make sure that other beekeepers get a fair price for their honey?

    deknow
    Stop telling everyone that other honey is not as good as yours?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #168
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Well, I think the practices of beekeepers that don't treat are superior to those that do.

    I think the chances of breeding strong bees that don't need treatments in the long run are much greater in operations that take pains not to use treatments in the short run....I think they are worth supporting, and I think therefore that their products are worth a premium. In this way I think they are superior.

    I think A LOT of honey available (especially on the local level...honey that isn't tested) has various amounts of feed in them...and the beekeepers that aren't feeding are much less likely to have feed adulterated honey.

    I think beekeepers that don't put treatments in the hive have a lot less chance of having those treatments show up in the honey.

    I think that honey that is honestly labeled as to who produced it and where is less likely to be bought in honey from an unknown source....a source even the seller can't vouch for.

    ....you can all market your products however you want....let me know how it works out.

    deknow

  9. #169
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Stop telling everyone that other honey is not as good as yours?
    When did I say that?

    deknow

  10. #170
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    Aug 2005
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    Washington County, Maine
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    2,431

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Take a deep breath everyone. The discussion on this thread thus far has been great but I think we are fast approaching the point where tempers are going to flare. Let's not let that happen.

    A question: Is a sustainable apiary with the need to split and/or make up nucs to replace deadouts really all that sustainable? Forget about the treatment/non-treatment arguments for a moment, if you have to regularly replace X percentage of your stock because X percentage didn't survive/wasn't productive, how are you off a treadmill?

    Is keeping enough bees alive so that the economics still work good enough? (Work in progress...Do what we need to do to stay in business...)

    The big question: Do we have confidence in the US Govt. to set rules and standards to protect the food supply by testing and approving products such as miticides for use in honey bee colonies?

    Allowing for healthy skepticism at the ability of the US Govt to implement rules and standards to protect the food supply without political intrigue or conspiracy theories, to what extent do we follow the dogma "an educated consumer is our best customer?"

    What about the consumers who don't have the time and/or interest to become educated on this topic? "Just give me my honey and back away..."

    I'm starting to feel like this post is just a continuation of the same old arguments and I'm tired of them.

    It seems to me that we have sincere individuals producing a product by different methods and advertising their product as somehow better because of the way their product was produced.

    I think the discussion really turns into one of confidence in the commercial agricultural "system" to produce healthy products. And there is no way that argument will ever get settled as it all comes down to belief.

  11. #171
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    thanks for hanging in here dean, good answer. (from the jeckyl side of me )
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  12. #172
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Well, I think the practices of beekeepers that don't treat are superior to those that do.

    I think the chances of breeding strong bees that don't need treatments in the long run are much greater in operations that take pains not to use treatments in the short run....I think they are worth supporting, and I think therefore that their products are worth a premium. In this way I think they are superior.

    I think A LOT of honey available (especially on the local level...honey that isn't tested) has various amounts of feed in them...and the beekeepers that aren't feeding are much less likely to have feed adulterated honey.

    I think beekeepers that don't put treatments in the hive have a lot less chance of having those treatments show up in the honey.

    I think that honey that is honestly labeled as to who produced it and where is less likely to be bought in honey from an unknown source....a source even the seller can't vouch for.


    deknow
    Don't disagree with all of it, but a lot of "I thinks" in there.

    TF practises being superior? In what way. Much practises I've read about on the TF forum are pretty shonky.


    Chances of breeding stronger bees more likely? The reality is most of this is not being done by TF beekeepers it's being done by properly run breeding programs such as the BR bee lab etc. you'll find most TF folks who have "survivor" bees, if they could trace the ancestry of their bees it would include influence from one of these programs.

    But I don't have any particular beef with you having an opinion, whatever it is. Long as other people aren't getting slagged off, and most particularly, if the slagging off is not even accurate. Ultimately this is bad for everybody.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #173
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Stop telling everyone that other honey is not as good as yours?
    Wait a second...you think that marketing treatment free honey as a premium product drives down the price of other honey? That might be true if we were also competing on price...we aren't...we are raising the price to the producer, and getting the customer used to the fact that a premium product costs something extra.

    Nothing we are doing is driving down the price of honey.

    deknow

  14. #174
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A lot of "I thinks" in there.

    TF practises being superior? In what way.
    ...in any way!

    deknow

  15. #175
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    This is absurd....I won't reply to anything else regarding my "claims" unless they are quoted. I've never said the things I'm being accused of saying. Put up or shut up...please.

    deknow

  16. #176
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Wait a second...you think that marketing treatment free honey as a premium product drives down the price of other honey? That might be true if we were also competing on price...we aren't...we are raising the price to the producer, and getting the customer used to the fact that a premium product costs something extra.

    Nothing we are doing is driving down the price of honey.

    deknow
    Telling people, and enough people, that other honey is adulterated, has poison in it etc, ultimately, will drive down price.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #177
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    This is absurd....I won't reply to anything else regarding my "claims" unless they are quoted. I've never said the things I'm being accused of saying. Put up or shut up...please.

    deknow
    Oh. You've never said other honey is adulterated. Or you've never said other honey has poisonous treatments in it. Unless I go to the trouble of quoting it for you.

    RRRight........

    While in general I agree with the principle of quoting stuff in these situations, in this case we've all read stuff you've said Dean. Really, trying to deny it is semantics and word play. I'll not waste my time finding the quotes that everybody has seen anyway.

    Unless you REALLY want me to. A whole page of them may not be a good look......
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #178
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Telling people, and enough people, that other honey is adulterated, has poison in it etc, ultimately, will drive down price.
    Some honey is adulterated. Some honey has "poison" in it ...sometimes the beekeeper put there. These are exactly the things that I work really hard to change. Ignoring them and pretending they don't happen does nothing to protect the consumer. Does nothing to change things. Good luck.

    deknow

  19. #179
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I've never said the things I'm being accused of saying.

    deknow
    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Some honey is adulterated. Some honey has "poison" in it.
    deknow
    We seem to have a contradiction.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #180
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    Apr 2008
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    Leominster, MA USA
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    While you boys were "talking" all day I was out selling honey!

    No need to talk about what others may or may not be doing...I give out the tastes and the customers buy. Many have been coming for four years, many got the honey as gifts and come back to buy on their own.

    Many care about the beekeepers practices...all are amazed by the taste and quality. I have lots of customers from other countries - Morocco in particular - who are actively seeking honey from bees that are not fed sugar or hfcs. They are crazy for Dee's honey. Apparently beekeeping is changing in Morocco as more bees now are being fed and the customers don't like it. They are very happy to pay a premium as even our honey is less expensive than honey in Morocco.

    Ramona

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