small cell foundation

[Colleen O.]

You see, wine beer cheese etc. is cultured, more accurately than fermented, in a controlled environment of laboratory hygiene. Honey, which for starters is a very different product and not even in the same catagory, is produced in a beehive. Fermentation (which implies by bacteria), is not a major part of the process, plus honey is exposed to multiple organisms, that the balance of some of them may have been altered in some way has not been shown to be of any consequence.

I have a crock in which I make sauerkraut and dill pickles. It is a very nice polish Fermentation Crock. It capitalizes on the bacteria present in the cabbage or cucumbers for the process. I also have made Kefir and regularly make yogurt. Both yogurt and Kefir are generally considered cultured products, but in reality they depend on bacterial fermentation similar to the cabbage and cucumbers. All of these are considered super-foods due to their cancer-fighting and healthful properties. (Yogurt is fed to chemotherapy patients and to people who have been treated with antibiotics to repopulate their healthy intestinal bacteria.)

Honey has been found to have special healthy properties too and to me it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to see the enzymes that bees add contributing to that or causing it. If you accept that their addition adds to the healthful properties then can't you accept that if those bacteria in their mid-guts are reduced their contribution to a healthy product could be reduced?

[Oldtimer]

Yes it's possible.

I'm a guy who prefers facts though, to inuendo. There MIGHT be a difference in some of the honeys, related to this issue. To my knowledge though none has ever been found. So, how much of a problem is it?

What I dislike though, is somebody trying to prove something to suit his purposes, that hasn't been proved.

[squarepeg]

colleen, yes i can accept that on principle. but it means a lot more if that hypothesis is tested and proven.

it is also just as possible that the beneficial qualities in honey could be enhanced if the altered microcrobial population resulted in a favorable outcome regarding those qualities.

[deknow]

You see, wine beer cheese etc. is cultured, more accurately than fermented, in a controlled environment of laboratory hygiene.

Why is "cultured" more accurate than "fermented"?

http://winemakermag.com/stories/arti...s-fermentation

This brings us to the second source — wild yeast. Many winemakers who make wine from fresh juice or grapes add no yeast at all. If you buy juice, the retailer may suggest you simply take it home and let it sit until it starts fermenting on its own. And within a day or so, it will begin to bubble. How does that happen?

http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...sourdough.html

Out of yeast? Don’t worry: It’s not hard to find.

The feisty critters that make bread rise actually live all around us. In fact, the use of yeast in bread-making probably got its start accidentally, when “wild” yeast caused doughs meant for unleavened flatbreads to ferment.

To this day, many bakers still use “wild” yeast to make bread, especially in San Francisco, a city famous for its sourdough. To make sourdough, bakers use a “starter,” a piece of dough in which yeast is continually reproducing with the help of regular doses of flour from the baker. The yeast that gets the starter “started” usually comes from the air in the kitchen or bakery where the bread is made, but some starter recipes also use store-bought yeast.

[Oldtimer]

Dean I see you've skipped the questions asked of you in the last few posts.

However, to indulge your cheese issue, culture is the word normally used and there are reasons for that. With your googling skills, I'm sure you will be able to find them.

Do you want to argue about cheese? If so, what does that really tell everybody about your being a "laid back type of guy". Seem pretty wound up, to me.

Or, to repeat yet again, what is the subject?

[Barry]

I never knew small cell foundation covered all this!

[squarepeg]

it's a rich topic!

[deknow]

...best I can tell, the thread went from SC to treatment free here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...327#post875327

...I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to who it came from.

What I would like (if I had a choice), is a conversation where others are not lying about what I've said or claimed, and that when someone posts something as 'fact', that they are willing to back it up, or admit that they made a mistake...it's not that difficult.

deknow

[Oldtimer]

Well I checked out your link Dean, and as I suspected, surprise surprise, it was one of MY posts. Now how would I have known you'd try to blame the whole thing on me LOL
In fact, there was no problem at all with my post you linked and it certainly did not cause all the other crap you've brought up Dean.

What I would like (if I had a choice), is a conversation where others are not lying about what I've said or claimed, and that when someone posts something as 'fact', that they are willing to back it up, or admit that they made a mistake...it's not that difficult.

deknow

Agreed. Please go ahead.

[Colleen O.]

colleen, yes i can accept that on principle. but it means a lot more if that hypothesis is tested and proven.

it is also just as possible that the beneficial qualities in honey could be enhanced if the altered microcrobial population resulted in a favorable result regarding those qualities.

Squarepeg, I can understand that, especially since you come across as a very analytical/science based person. You want something you can point at that is in black and white. Personally I find life is rarely that simple. To me, scientific studies are often biased toward what the researcher is trying to prove and many things worthy of investigation aren't investigated because there is no profit or not enough profit in it.

To me, sometimes we have to accept there are things better not meddled with and things that benefit more if MAN doesn't intervene. I can't prove it, but I accept it.

And yes, you are probably correct, if we could unlock it we could capitalize on it. Maybe engineer it to be better but we must remember that nature has a balance and with every gain there is a commensurate loss.

[squarepeg]

i like that colleen, and with bees i have seen that proven out by how they would have been better off had i not meddled.

nothing wrong with adopting an approach based on a feeling or a philosophy.

there is room for both with beekeeping, but sometimes they are antagonistic, and this is an example.

[Roland]

Deknow - did I miss your PM on price and quantity of treatment free honey you could purchase from me? With you numbers I could calculate if the extra effort of treatment free is economical. Another gentleman that approached me about [purchasing TF honey has yet to put his money where his mouth is.

How did Mr. Lyon's honey taste(I bet good)? There is more to honey quality than what is not put in it.


Crazy forgettable Roland

[Colleen O.]

I never knew small cell foundation covered all this!

you are correct, it doesn't. I'm sorry, I was responding to where the thread had gone, not where it was supposed to be. I will try to not get so carried away.

[squarepeg]

(sorry dean, remember the caddy shack 'gopher'? and i admit, i made a mistake)

don't have a clue about cell size and fermentation, what are your thoughts?

with the posts coming in at light speed, did you have a chance to see #358?

[Oldtimer]

Agreed. Trying to argue and pull up google links over anything. Even cheese.

Thanks for bringing us back to the subject Roland. Long time no see!

[deknow]

Roland, please see: http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...593#post876593

[deknow]

I've made any point I'm going to make here...we cannot have any kind of productive discussion when thoughts are "clarified" (in ways only George Orwell would appreciate) and faulty "facts" are presented in ignorance. I stand by anything I've said in this thread, and ask that I be quoted rather than "clarified".

deknow

[squarepeg]

o.k.

[Oldtimer]

Likewise I'd appreciate not being falsely accused of lying.

Less "i thinks", "maybes", and "mights", should also be used when trying to prove something. All those words prove is that there is no proof. Annoys me and I am often tempted to draw attention to it.

[Oldtimer]

Oh. Do I still get my book?