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  1. #341
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Certainly agreed that we have to be careful not to anthropomorphize, but when we are talking about gut microbes, we are talking about a common mechanism that operates in pretty much anyone large enough to have a hole through the middle of them...and pretty much everyone else as well. It's almost as basic and common as talking about cellular structure.

    If we were talking about changing the nature of the fermenting culture of beer, wine, cheese, sourdough, etc, there would be no question that we are changing the nature of the end product.

    deknow

  2. #342
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    So is this something you will be testing for on the bees from which the honey you sell comes from? Will this be some new standard that your suppliers will have to pass?
    Regards, Barry

  3. #343
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    "No Question". You see, from my perspective that's rather a bold statement.

    Agreed, antibiotics change bee gut microfauna. Does it matter? Well the answer to that is less clear.

    But the main thrust of my last few posts is not actually that. Internet knowledge exchange is both good, and bad. Over here I am surrounded by new beeks, who think they have to know a whole lot of stuff, that they don't, and this can be an impediment to them learning, what they actually would be better off to know.

    When they see my eye's start to glaze over after a few minutes of them lecturing me on something of no real value to them, they dismiss me as an old fart who must be pretty ignorant and lose interest in anything I might be able to help them with.

    What I see as the best plan for a beginner is to forget overly academic sides of stuff, find someone who gets good results with bees, and copy them. AFTER they can keep bees, then they can pursue academia intelligently, being in a better position to judge it's value.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #344
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...the consumer and retailer that relies on the honesty and integrity of Dee Lusby, Kirk Webster, and Bob Brachman as well as the integrity of Ramona and me, is in very good hands.
    Jim as well, now that he shed some light on his own tested honey. I'm having to take a step back after Jim shared his results and rethink my position on these matters. It's very easy to paint the commercial crowd with a broad brush and assume their honey is not on par with 'your' honey. Sure, there will be those with tainted honey, but I think it's a disservice to give the perception to consumers that "they bad, we good" message simply on the grounds of treatments. I have been guilty of this myself, but I must now be honest with the facts and approach this differently. Thank you Jim for sharing your results.
    Regards, Barry

  5. #345
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    When they see my eye's start to glaze over after a few minutes of them lecturing me on something of no real value to them, they dismiss me as an old fart who must be pretty ignorant and lose interest in anything I might be able to help them with.

    and unfortunately, that is often either inspired or reinforced by the dogma of some 'newer' or 'alternate' methodologies.

    actually, inspired is far too soft. they are explicitly told so.

    fab discussion, btw... from the comfort of my armchair.

  6. #346
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    "No Question". You see, from my perspective that's rather a bold statement.
    Please don't take my words out of context. "No question" was referring microbes that produce beer, wine, cheese, sourdough...and there is no question...the characteristics of fermented foods is largely dependent on who (microbially) is doing the fermenting.

    It is difficult for me to imagine that somehow it's different in the case of honey...but at this point, as I've said, there has only ever been one study that compared untreated bees to treated bees...and the folks doing that research have NSF funding for basic research...nothing they are doing (or plan to do) has anything with producing a commercial product, or even solutions for beekeepers. There is "no question" that the microbes are impacted, but at the present time, we have nothing specific to point to on the end product...but then again, no one has been looking. I did not say (or imply) that there was "no question" about treatment vs. treatment free honey.

    There is "no question" that when you are not feeding it is difficult for your feed to get in the honey (I would submit that one is much more likely to get their own feed in their honey than someone elses), and if one is not treating it is difficult for your treatments to get into the honey (which is how most of the pesticides that are found in honey get there). Eliminating feeds and treatments is eliminating the "low hanging fruit", and is akin to safety measures that prevent one from exposing themselves to risk...."if your hand isn't near the blade, there is no need to be extra careful when your hand is near the blade".

    deknow

  7. #347
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    i'm too new to know, but what kind of contaminants show up when honey is analyzed for herbicides and pesticides that may have come in from the environment, i.e. from nearby agriculture, vegatable and flower gardens, ect?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #348
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    So is this something you will be testing for...
    Is _what_ something I will be testing for?

    It's very easy to paint the commercial crowd with a broad brush and assume their honey is not on par with 'your' honey.
    I've never painted the commercial crowd with a broad brush. Just like any population, there are good guys and bad guys. We know that some use unimaginable "shop towel" treatments, some feed HFCS with honey supers on, some sell adulterated honey to other beekeepers to sell as their own, some sell "pure honey" that is only 70% honey.

    There are good hotels and bad hotels. Some hotels are listed in guides that tell you which is which. Just because a hotel isn't in one (or any) of those guides doesn't mean that it is a bad hotel...and it is hard to imagine that anyone would consider the AAA travel guide as denigrating every hotel that it does not list. They have their standards and their procedures they use to assure quality, and I have mine. Such results are not measured by those excluded from the criteria, but by the consistent quality displayed by what does fit the criteria.

    If one believes that the microbial symbionts that the bees rely on should remain as undamaged as possible (for long term practical reasons), why should one not buy honey that is produced with that as an outcome of the beekeepers practice? Certainly no one disputes the added value of produce that is cultivated in a way that preserves the soil.

    deknow

  9. #349
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  10. #350
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    thanks dean, they were sampling pollen, beebread, and wax. i was wondering about honey that gets to market.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  11. #351
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Please don't take my words out of context. "No question" was referring microbes that produce beer, wine, cheese, sourdough...and there is no question...the characteristics of fermented foods is largely dependent on who (microbially) is doing the fermenting.

    deknow
    Problem was Dean, what you were saying implied, to a casual reader, that there is "no question", the same applies to honey. Even though you didn't specifically say that. So I just clarified, saying the answer to that is less clear. If you were not trying to imply that, why did you have a problem with me picking up on it?

    You see, wine beer cheese etc. is cultured, more accurately than fermented, in a controlled environment of laboratory hygiene. Honey, which for starters is a very different product and not even in the same catagory, is produced in a beehive. Fermentation (which implies by bacteria), is not a major part of the process, plus honey is exposed to multiple organisms, that the balance of some of them may have been altered in some way has not been shown to be of any consequence.

    That nobody feels this is important enough to study or release any commercial products to deal with it, might also give you a clue.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #352
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...I think I can state ...that changing what goes into such a system (food, treatments) changes the nature of that culture. If we change the nature of the culture, we are changing the nature of the bees...
    I agree with this. This is why I'm trying to go treatment free - basically because I have no hope of understanding the full scope of the effect any treatment is going to have on the bee. The whole system is just too complex. With that in mind, I have to try to be as minimalist as I can be.

    Now... hmmm... just how minimalist is that?

    Adam

  13. #353
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    as minimalist as is practical?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #354
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Isn't proof in the pudding, not theory land?

    I am happy to supply samples of honey from my treated hives. If it can be shown how they are different from honey from non treated hives, THEN this stuff can be presnted like it's a fact. Till then, it's a theory, and shouldn't be presented as a fact, cos it isn't. My opinon? There would be sweet ** difference.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #355
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Foster Collins View Post
    Now... hmmm... just how minimalist is that?

    Adam
    Practice non-intervention beekeeping?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  16. #356
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Problem was Dean, what you were saying implied, to a casual reader, that there is "no question", the same applies to honey. Even though you didn't specifically say that. So I just clarified, saying the answer to that is less clear. If you were not trying to imply that, why did you have a problem with me picking up on it?
    Why do I have a problem with you "clarifying" my statements by changing their meaning? I can't imagine.

    No, you cannot pretend i said something I never said and call it a "clarification". I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. This is classic "straw man", and it has been a major theme of this thread.

    You see, wine beer cheese etc. is cultured, more accurately than fermented, in a controlled environment of laboratory hygiene. Honey, which for starters is a very different product and not even in the same catagory, is produced in a beehive. Fermentation (which implies by bacteria), is not a major part of the process, plus honey is exposed to multiple organisms, that the balance of some of them may have been altered in some way has not been shown to be of any consequence.
    Sorry...most of the above is factually inaccurate.
    1. I'm not sure what you mean by "cultured" specifically, but fermented foods are often (in modern times) inoculated with a concentrated specific microbial culture (often after trying to kill or limit other microbes that might be present), but this is not necessary to make fermented foods. Many fermented foods still are fermented with the already present microbes, and historically, all fermented foods were. No lab grade hygiene is needed to ferment foods, and most fermented food made in the world is done with naturally occurring microbes. If you are interested, "Wild Fermentation" by Sandor Elix Katz is a great introduction to fermented foods.

    2. Fermentation is by definition, accomplished by enzymes...often microbial (not always bacterial), but enzymes in your stomach are also fermenting...the term refers to enzymes, not bacteria.

    3. Unless you can describe how honey is produced, you cannot really tell me how it isn't produced. There is published research that shows good evidence (and it claims) that honey is a fermented food. "...honey stomach LAB flora appears to be essential in the transformation of nectar into honey"...from an article by Tobias and Alejandra in ABJ, 2009.

    4. "...that the balance of some of them [microbes in bee hives] may have been altered in some way has not been shown to be of any consequence"
    ...the issue here is that no one has even looked. If we accept the possibility that honey is, at least in part, a fermented food, it would seem contrary to assume that changing the makeup of the complex fermentation culture would cause no change in the honey.

    In any case, it's hard to take criticisms of citing too much "academic work" from someone that makes that many factual misstatements in a single paragraph. You don't have to know this stuff, but you _really_ don't need to give the impression that you do.


    deknow

  17. #357
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Why do I have a problem with you "clarifying" my statements by changing their meaning? I can't imagine.

    deknow
    I can't imagine either. Paranoid? You did have a problem though because you accused me of taking your words out of context. Not warranted.

    Now you're accusing me of making factual mistatements, in relation to, of all things, cheese. As someone who once worked in a cheese factory I can say not everything you have said is factual, or is at the least presented in a misleading way. You are now not only telling me you are my beekeeping teacher, but also a cheesemaking expert? I doubt you know crap about making cheese.

    What is the subject of the thread Dean? Way I've been reading the last few pages, seems you've been leading the discussion one way, then another, in what looks like an attempt to move towards finding something to say that other honey is not as good as your honey. Plus to try and make it look like there is a study that supports that. There is'n't.

    Please clarify the subject.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #358
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    http://www.bee-hexagon.net/files/fil...ologie2006.pdf

    found this one, gave it a quick once over.

    not much contamination found in honey from the environment, mostly introduced by beekeeping practices, and mostly antibiotics.

    this review concluded the organic acids were not a concern when used properly in regards to honey contamination.

    but your point dean, i believe, is that there should be as much or more concern over alterations to the microflora in the bee gut.

    my first thought about the analogy of soil conserving measures and bee microflora conserving measures, was that messing up the soil would seem to have potentially and vastly farther reaching consequences.

    does altering bee gut microflora have any farther reaching consequences than (potentially) for the honey or the bee?

    obviously you feel that they should be a significant concern, why?

    are any investigators on track to provide us with the answers as to what these observations might mean from a practical sense?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #359
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    From Merriam Webster: www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fermentation
    Definition of FERMENTATION
    1
    a : a chemical change with effervescence
    b : an enzymatically controlled anaerobic breakdown of an energy-rich compound (as a carbohydrate to carbon dioxide and alcohol or to an organic acid); broadly : an enzymatically controlled transformation of an organic compound
    Medical Definition of FERMENTATION
    1
    : a chemical change with effervescence
    2
    : an enzymatically controlled anaerobic breakdown of an energy-rich compound (as a carbohydrate to carbon dioxide and alcohol or to an organic acid); broadly : an enzymatically controlled transformation of an organic compound
    ...not to mention that yeast (as used in making beer, wine, bread) is not a bacteria....it is a yeast!

    Note that I don't have to "paraphrase" you to make it look like you said: "Fermentation (which implies by bacteria),..." because I can actually quote you.

  20. #360
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Dean I refer you to the question asked in my last post.

    You seem to want to have a bun fight about anything.

    Please first, clarify the subject.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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