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  1. #241
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    "...kind of contradicts your "take home message"...yet you take no pains to explain why the study was valid enough to arrive at your take away, yet flawed enough to question the conclusions."

    i never said this study was flawed.

    and, seeing how only the taste of the honey on only one of the treated hives exceeded taste threshold in no way contradicts but rather supports my take home message.

    on page 138 of your book, even you state not much concern for formic ending up in the honey.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #242
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Sure they can...but there are a couple of preconditions for this to work:

    2. Discussion must be honest...that means that quotes from papers, references, other sources, and other participants in the discussion must be qualified as to whether they are actaully quotes, or merely a paraphrase. Quotes have to be taken in context and in good faith.


    I typed directly from the volume. If they were my own comments, I would put them in [square brackets]
    from your last.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  3. #243
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    for the record, and for what it is worth, this was not a set up. i had already posted the question, and was in the process of ordering the book, when i discovered i could view the pages.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #244
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    wow. i feel pretty stupid now.

    i went back to read more, and found the statement quoted by dean. there was another, almost identical statement that i saw at first that didn't include the formic and oxalic.

    i feel like a total jerk dean.

    i see no other way to make this right other than to bow out of this (less than gracefully).

    i'm done.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #245
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Kinda wondering what the thread is actually about. Formic acids effects on mould? Small cell? Deans marketing tactics? Antibiotics? Tainted honey? What?

    Think it's one of those threads where numerous opinions are expressed but concensus isn't reached as at least one person assumes himself is the final authority, the teacher. And the rest, the ungrateful students, kiddies.

    Re me being referred to as an "armchair beekeeper" I got to ask, how many hives do you have, Dean? Anytime you want to consider your "success" rates aginst mine, in terms of per hive productivity, survivability, or whatever, just let me know. Let's see who is REALLY the armchair beekeeper. There are those who live off their bees, and those who can't, teach.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 12-16-2012 at 02:06 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #246
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    ...as at least one person assumes himself is the final authority, the teacher. And the rest, the ungrateful students, kiddies.
    I can't really say anything to this except that the links to references I've given in the last few pages are probably the most complete listing of references relative to the microbiota of the honeybee to be found anywhere. I don't want to be your teacher...none of you seem willing to do homework. It was claimed that I was somehow dishonest because treated bees and honey are exactly the same....I've presented some of the historical and current research....would you rather I sit in the back of the class and make farting noises with my armpit while speculations and false statements are made in ignorance of the facts? I'm not making this stuff up...this is mainstream.

    Re me being referred to as an "armchair beekeeper" I got to ask, how many hives do you have, Dean? Anytime you want to consider your "success" rates aginst mine, in terms of per hive productivity, survivability, or whatever, just let me know. Let's see who is REALLY the armchair beekeeper. There are those who live off their bees, and those who can't, teach.
    Oh please, I wasn't calling you an armchair beekeeper for your beekeeping....I was referring specifically to the practice of citing, quoting, and qualifying studies one has not read.

  7. #247
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Oh. I wasn't called an armchair beekeeper, for my beekeeping. interesting concept. Frankly, it looks to me like most of YOUR beekeeping is done, from an armchair.

    Plus you ignored the thrust of my post. You didn't answer the question, or pick up the challenge.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #248
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Oh. I wasn't called an armchair beekeeper, for my beekeeping. interesting concept.
    Yes...I'm making things up again

    In any case have fun...I'm sure you can all make a great mess of things quoting abstracts and such....remember...ignorance is bliss....and armchair beekeeping no longer requires that you read the studies on the coffee table next to the armchair.
    ....it's almost like I was talking specifically about not reading the studies one is citing...isn't it?

    Frankly, it looks to me like most of YOUR beekeeping is done, from an armchair.
    Well, we don't run as many colonies as we would like...our time is limited...but our work educates a lot of new beekeepers, helps beekeepers of all levels start to raise their own queens and breed their own bees, and helps to allow our suppliers to run their commercial operations without having to dicker with the packers to try and get a fair price. We all have our roles, and I could not be doing everything I am doing if I also was running very many more hives....although we are looking to restructure things a bit in the future so that we have more time for more bees.

    Plus you ignored the thrust of my post. You didn't answer the question, or pick up the challenge.
    The whole point of treatment free beekeeping (at least from my perspective) is to keep bees more in line with nature and with natural systems. There are a variety of practical and philosophical reasons to do this, and a variety of practical and philosophical reasons not to. How you want to handle those things is up to you.

    Keeping chickens in a box is productive and efficient...but it's not very fun, and it doesn't offer much in the way of reward _except_ for the productivity and efficiency (not much appreciation for the bird or for nature). It's also a useless environment for selection of breeding stock, except for stock well suited to living in a box. ...and even on a planet where this is true, there is a reasonable premium market for eggs produced by chickens that are treated more naturally.



    deknow


    deknow

  9. #249
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Yes...I'm making things up again

    deknow
    Your words.

    The rest of your answer is fudge. Saying you "don't run as many colonies as we would like", doesn't either answer the question, or tell anyone what your real world experience is. What's the secret?

    The blurb about Tf beekeeping, running chickens in a box etc. is just more fudge, to avoid meeting a challenge on real world, not armchair theory, results. Remember the challenge came from you Dean. Being called an armchair beekeeper, by someone like yourself, is begging for me to ask you to verify, isn't it?

    I don't have chickens in a box. My bees though, are in boxes, same as yours. I'm keen to see how you armchair research translates to real world results.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 12-16-2012 at 03:16 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #250
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I've given a few talks called "the people's homework", that is focused on the how and why _people_ (not just scientists) have to read and study the research themselves if they want to be empowered by science. I believe in this strongly.
    Dean, you have to think of the average beekeeper who doesn't have a clue on what is being discussed in a research paper. We are just sitting here listening to those that might know what is in the paper and trying to make sense of it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #251
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    [QUOTE=squarepeg;875756]
    understood donna, and thanks for taking the time to reply.

    i hope you will continue to contribute to the discussion, and share what your real experiences are.]

    maybe

    [do you really think that new beekeepers might lose sight of their treatment free goals from reading here?]

    hope I am wrong about that

    [i haven't lost sight of that goal for myself, and i believe that not having to use treatments would be a goal for all beekeepers.

    i think the discussion deteriorates when we arbitrarily divide ourselves into 'us' and 'them', as the unique forum rules do.

    the reality is that there is a range of approaches, with those on either extreme, and the rest of us finding ourselves somewhere in between.]

    I would find it very difficult to be somewhere in between..that may be ok for some..the treatment treadmill is not for me, I can't even imagine standing in front of one of my hives and dumping dopes in and feeling like I am doing a good thing, the only thing I would be doing is funding another study for more doping..But that is me.

  12. #252
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    i respect you for that donna.

    if i may ask, what do you do with a colony that is dying?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #253
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    i respect you for that donna.

    if i may ask, what do you do with a colony that is dying?
    absolutely nothing

  14. #254
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    so much of the treatment free approach makes really good sense to me, except for that part.

    but i believe the subject is worthy of a thread of its own. i think i'll start one.

    thanks again for your replies.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #255
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Dean, you have to think of the average beekeeper who doesn't have a clue on what is being discussed in a research paper. We are just sitting here listening to those that might know what is in the paper and trying to make sense of it.
    Well it's that Ace, but also, when someone decides they are my teacher, and I an ungrateful student, I could be happy with that, if I knew their credentials.

    So my question, as yet unanswered, was to start establishing credentials.

    If I am to be taught by someone, I am interested in what they can do with bees. Not their googling skills.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #256
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    So my question, as yet unanswered, was to start establishing credentials
    Let's be careful how far down the road we go with this.
    Regards, Barry

  17. #257
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Doesn't look like it's going any further, Deknow will not say how many hives he has, or discuss his results.

    I'll base my judgement on what I know of him which is his googling skills and ability to find 100 references. But as I could do that also, if I had enough time, being referred to as kiddie and one of his students is a little patronising.

    As an aside, I've been asked many times how many hives I have and other assorted questions about my results such as how many deadouts, etc. Never had a problem with any of that I think it's important.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 12-16-2012 at 07:52 PM.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #258
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    There's been a lot of jabbing and poking back and forth. Let's try to get it heading the other direction.
    Regards, Barry

  19. #259
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    So my question, as yet unanswered, was to start establishing credentials.
    Well Oldtimer if I was hung up on credentials I wouldn't have learned much in my line of work. People can have fantastic ideas without credentials. What is more important to me is a persons thought process not what title they hold.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #260
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Doesn't look like it's going any further, Deknow will not say how many hives he has, or discuss his results.
    Seriously? I'm doing something besides answering to these asinine accusations for 3.5 hours, and again, it's claimed (and broadcast) that I'm refusing to talk.

    I say asinine because about a week ago I posted about what I was busy doing:

    ...+ about 40 colonies of bees.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...691#post873691

    ...but don't tell anyone...I'm trying to keep it a secret.

    I've been open about the size of our operation, our successes and losses consistantly in our postings, in our talks, with our customers...with everyone we have ever talked to.

    I've been open (here, on other forums, in talks) about when we buy packages, when 2 years ago we were down to 5 survivor coloines to breed back from (3 of them were in a yard that we thought was dead). I can't say everything possible in every post and in every thread. About the bees we bought from Don Fatbeeman, about the influence of package genetics....about a yard so bad with chalkbrood that Chris Baldwin thought we should shake them out (in August). I have hives that die from mites (I'm not one that claims I don't lose bees to mites...I saw one obvious example this fall....a spring cutout that never quite took off despite requeening).

    I'm hardly secretive, and I do my best to give the best answers to those that are seeking knowledge. If you are trying to attack me relentlessly, your answers will probably be at the end of the line.

    I'll base my judgement on what I know of him which is his googling skills and ability to find 100 references. But as I could do that also, if I had enough time, being referred to as kiddie and one of his students is a little patronising.
    Yes, I can google, and I can find information fast...but that isn't relevent....it's reading and understanding the studies that is important..collecting them is for collectors. Those hundred references were collected over a number of years (most of them found by Ramona), and are not so easy to find...the Gilliam papers (which are really important) were two full days work for two people to scan them all so they could be made available. I've offered good analysis of both the Seeley study (which was claimed to be a "good study") and the Moran study....as well as lots of other bits from some of the other studies. ....but posters here want to tell me what is in them, how they can be improved, how qualified the authors are....all without even reading them. I hope I've been helpful to others that are trying to understand.

    As an aside, I've been asked many times how many hives I have and other assorted questions about my results such as how many deadouts, etc. Never had a problem with any of that I think it's important.
    I've never had a problem with that either, and I've always been open and honest about such facts....even if you want to claim that I'm somehow being secretive.

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