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  1. #201
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    understood, thanks. do you have a similar debate there regarding synthetic vs. organic vs. treatment free?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #202
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Would be interesting to test some bees from my country. It's illegal here to use antibiotics in a beehive, for any purpose, and our bees have never in their history been treated with antibiotics. So they could be used as a "control", of what untreated gut microflora would be, if someone wanted to do it.
    I don't know what to say. The Moran study I posted a few hours ago looked at the antibiotic resistance of the gut microflora...NZ was one source for the study.

    deknow

  3. #203
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    ...there is also our kitchen table demonstration..."No Bee Is an Island"
    http://beeuntoothers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf
    formicacid.jpg

  4. #204
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/art.../donders_1.pdf

    i mentioned in a post above, that it is possible to have naturally occurring formic acid at higher levels in honey harvested from hives that had not treated with formic, that in honey harvested from hives that have been treated with formic.

    this is the source for that.

    the researchers attempted a worse case scenario, but putting on honey supers in the spring immediately after treating with formic acid.

    the spring honey they harvested did have, on average, higher levels of formic acid in the hives that were treated compared to those that were not, but those levels were below the taste threshold, (except for one outlyer).

    note there were some in the untreated group with higher levels than some in the treated group.

    formic acid occurs naturally in honey and varies greatly depending on the nectar source.

    the take home for me was that formic is nothing to worry about, even in the worse case scenario, and especially if i apply it after the honey harvest.

    according to the usda study on microflora, the use of formic may or may not alter the microflora, and if it does, it may or may not be beneficial.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #205
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I don't know what to say. The Moran study I posted a few hours ago looked at the antibiotic resistance of the gut microflora...NZ was one source for the study.

    deknow
    Oh thanks didn't know that! Haven't yet read every link posted in it's entirety!


    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    do you have a similar debate there regarding synthetic vs. organic vs. treatment free?
    No, we are an agricutural country with a lower percentage of "hipsters", pretty much everybody treats. Last couple of years there's been more people reading sites like Beesource and talking about treatment free, some trying it, there is skeptisizm from the treaters, but not really the "animated debate".
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #206
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    ...the above shows a great misunderstanding of what formic acid does in the hive...when used as directed, it isn't uncommon for the grass outside the entrance to die. Levels found months later are important if you are concerned only about what might be in the honey.

    If you are concerned about the microbial culture, the amount you put in the hive is staggering. Olfeson and Vasquez have shown that at least part of the not-understood mechanism that turns nectar into honey (we know it is more than evaporation) is microbial fermentation.

    Of course the make up of microbial fermenters is exactly what produces unique and valuable cheeses, wines, beers, breads, etc. Any change to a culture responsible for fermentation changes the product. Let me repeat, honey is a fermented product.

    The USDA study looks at _some_ of the fungi associated with beebread...it doesn't look at the bacteria, yeasts, etc.

    But I've now posted here a large amount of information talking about the effects that treatments, feeds, and agricultural chemicals (even confinement) have on the microbial cultures.

    I've been falsely accused of being dishonest on this thread so many times I can't keep track. Read these studies yourself, and read them critically. Get your library to order in the book I referenced earlier and read it. If you are interested in learning about these topics, all of the resources to do so have been posted.

    deknow

  7. #207
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    i justed look at your "ktichen table demonstration" dean.

    the results are not surprising.

    but to make the results meaningful in terms of comparing what maqs would do in a hive, you would have to translate the amount of formic acid into ppm, rather than how many drops in your solution.

    maqs is supposed to give 100 ppm, or 0.0001 concentration of formic in the air in the hive.

    what would you estimate the concentration to be in your gloves?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  8. #208
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post

    I've been falsely accused of being dishonest on this thread so many times I can't keep track. Read these studies yourself, and read them critically. Get your library to order in the book I referenced earlier and read it. If you are interested in learning about these topics, all of the resources to do so have been posted.

    deknow
    Who me? I certainly haven't falsely accused you of being dishonest, don't recall anyone else falsely accusing you either.

    If it is me you are talking to I may or may not get the book. I have a pretty sound grasp of the topic.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #209
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It's illegal here to use antibiotics in a beehive, for any purpose, and our bees have never in their history been treated with antibiotics.
    Interesting. Why do you think that is?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #210
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    It was initially to ensure antibiotics would not be used to control AFB, as burning had worked well for us.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #211
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    you could just as easily debate that since formic is there anyway, and since it naturally occurs much higher at times, that it plays a helpful role in pest and pathogen resistance, as well as help determine which yeasts get to do the fermenting.

    wine and cheese producers routinely kill unwanted yeasts, allowing the preferred yeasts to do the work and achieve the desired outcome.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #212
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    No, we are an agricutural country with a lower percentage of "hipsters", pretty much everybody treats. Last couple of years there's been more people reading sites like Beesource and talking about treatment free, some trying it, there is skeptisizm from the treaters, but not really the "animated debate".
    that's interesting. so you have to come to beesource to have 'fun' eh?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  13. #213

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I've been falsely accused of being dishonest on this thread so many times I can't keep track.
    Did it ever cross your mind that if a number of other folks say the same thing about you......it might just have merit?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  14. #214
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    maybe it's not really being dishonest if what you believe what you are saying is true?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #215
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Formic acid never occurs at the levels found in the hive when treating.....never. I would bet it never occurs within orders of magnitude of what is in the hive when treating with it.

    deknow

  16. #216
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    that's interesting. so you have to come to beesource to have 'fun' eh?
    LOL

    Actually I've learned a lot at Beesource. Tips on queenbreeding from Robert Russell, stuff of dubious quality, but interesting and inspiring, about treatment free, and the wealth of very knowledgeable people all gathered, general brainstorming with lots of beekeepers, and even total nuubs with bright ideas that are useful.

    Even hanging out with Deknow will no doubt add to, well, something....
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #217
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    wine and cheese producers routinely kill unwanted yeasts, allowing the preferred yeasts to do the work and achieve the desired outcome.
    That is true but it doesn't have effect on the grape vines or cows only the humans that consume the wine and cheese.
    If you were allergic to the sulfates you would be looking only at organic wines and maybe making mead yourself so as not to be experiencing the bounding head aches.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #218
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Formic acid never occurs at the levels found in the hive when treating.....never. I would bet it never occurs within orders of magnitude of what is in the hive when treating with it.

    deknow
    you would likely win that bet dean. the question is to what degree does temporarily raising it result in any long lasting detrimental effects to the bees or the honey.

    i don't think the information you have provided here, and i am doubtful that the other references you suggested would convince me in the way that you are convinced of those detrimental effects.

    but, i would defer to those with more background and training than myself, randy oliver for example.

    it's been awhile, but i did look over a lot of his information and don't remember seeing any of the problems you are raising here.

    i contribute to his web page, and he has been good to answer questions that i have emailed to him.

    can you state specifically what harm to the bees and the honey you believe using formic acid causes, so that i might email randy for his response?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #219
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Even hanging out with Deknow will no doubt add to, well, something....
    You can't BS a BSer. I think you are picking his brain.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  20. #220
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Ha Ha!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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