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  1. #181
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,416

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    for what it is worth, i price my honey a little higher than most others in my market.

    and i still don't think it is selling for what it should, given all that goes into bringing it to market. i am inspired by dean and ramona's approach, and i plan to adopt some of their ideas for marketing next year.

    i don't disagree with selling the customer/distributor on the fact that much expertise, great care, and a whole lot of sweat was involved to make it possible to hand them that jar of honey, and that they can be confident that it is the real deal and without contamination. we should all do that.

    i don't agree with using treatment or no treatments as the distinquishing criterian, and would take the time to explain to a potential customer that it is not a litmus test. i hope that no one is promoting such a thing.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #182
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    ramona, i vote that dean go to market tomorrow, and you do the posting on beesource.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  3. #183
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,929

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    No need to talk about what others may or may not be doing
    Ramona
    That I approve of. If you could drop doing that from your public "education" I'd have no further beef.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #184
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    Like lots of others, I've been reading about the value of small cell foundation and wondering if I should give it a try. I came across this:

    http://www.extension.org/pages/44732...eard-that-smal

    and am trying to decide if I should still give it a try or stick with what I already know.

    I'd love to hear what others think about it.


    Rusty
    this was the op, and rusty's 5th post on beesource.

    rusty, don't worry, it's not always like this.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  5. #185
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    dean, for what it's worth, i looked carefully at the information at beeuntoothers.com, and as you said, i didn't find any statements claiming 'treated' honey was inferior.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #186

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I'm a pretty easy going guy
    Ohhhhhh.....please stop! My side hurts. Hahahahahaha.......
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  7. #187
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,317

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Provided you got tests to show that there actually ARE any differences.
    You don't have to keep proving the earth is round once it has been proven. No food item is 100% tested. Many of the test are destructive. You test the processes and procedures until you get repeatability so that if you follow the processes and procedures you are reasonably assured that the outcome is the same.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #188
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,317

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    treatment free beekeeping isnt the only means to achieving a pure product.
    This could only be a viewpoint from someone that treats their bees. I suspect you could never convince any of Dean's customers otherwise. You could never convince me and I am not one of Dean's customers.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #189
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    896

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    this was the op, and rusty's 5th post on beesource.

    rusty, don't worry, it's not always like this.
    Actually, I've learned quite a lot from this "dust up" and have been able to consolidate a few vague ideas into a firmer plan than the one I started with. Plus y'all have pointed up some deficiencies in my knowledge base that I am now working to correct.

    Nobody can ever say it is dull around here!




    Rusty

  10. #190
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,604

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    It has been very difficult to say anything about treatment free bees, as there has been no recognition in the research community that the gut microbiota of treated bees is affected by treatments, feeds, antibiotics, etc.

    Martha Gilliam looked at some of these issues in the 70's at the Tucson Bee Lab (you will find copies of all of her work on our website under "Gilliam Archives"...there are a few magazine articles, but mostly peer reviewed journal articles spanning 20+ years. Ramona and I painstakingly scanned them one page at a time because they were not readily available.

    The more recent look at the gut microbes has considered very little at the effects of our practices on these communities.

    The recent work out of the Moran lab, however, is a bit different. I suggest you do some reading into the credentials, and read some of the other excelelent work they have published in the last two years on bees. Especially, you should consider the most recent one:

    http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/6/e00377-12.full

    I've made a few notes to highlight what is important here.

    This work shows rather definitively that gut microbiotia is heritable (and very old), and that a line damaged by antibiotics does not return (at least in 25+ years) to its original population. How these populations are affected by other treatments, feeds, and ag chemicals remains to be seen…but Gilliam’s work in the 70’s showed a big change in gut microbal makeupwhen bees were fed sugar, confined, exposed to 2,4,D, fumagillin, and terramycin (yeasts, molds, and bacteria).

    What This Study Showed

    • That gut microbes in bees from countries that never used antibiotics have a very low copy rate [infrequent in the population] of antibiotic resistance in their gut microbes
    • That Bees From Dee Lusby’s operation have levels almost as low as those from countries that never used antibiotics…lower than “feral” bees from Utah…much lower than bees from the Tuscon Lab nearby (that are 2 years without antibiotics)….much, much lower than bees established from commercial packages.


    What is Significant

    • The honeybee microbial community is very diverse, and presumably selecting for only the antibiotic resistant individuals greatly reduces this diversity (a bottle neck selecting only for the antibiotic resistant individuals). In the buildup period following wiping out all the non-resistant variations, millions of years of co-evolution are thrown out the window.
    • Remember that in parallel to selecting _for_ antibiotic resistance, since you are placing the microbial culture into an environment where antibiotics are used to suppress pathogenic bacteria, any pressure on the community to suppress these pathogens is removed…you are now selecting _against_ traits of bacteria that can suppress EFB, AFB, etc are selected _against_ when antibiotics are used.
    • Thusly rebuilt communities lack the continuum of diversity inhabiting the continuum of niches that exist throughout the digestive tract and throughout the superorganism…they can’t possibly be as efficient as the undamaged version….and remember…these communities are heritable...the damaged culture is passed along with its damage intact to the next generation.
    • Note that the not using of antibiotics, and the incorporation of feral stock has allowed a much less damaged version of these communities to persist in Dee’s bees vs. the bees up the road.
    • Antibiotic resistance is metabolically expensive. Populations that are selected for antibiotic resistance have less resources for functions other than antibiotic resistance…this is to say that antibiotic resistance comes at a cost to the population.
    • If you don’t think small cost savings are important and affect evolution in relatively short time periods, note the isolated populations of cave fish. When eyes don’t do you any good, the rare genetic combinations/mutations that don’t develop eyes become dominant.

  11. #191
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    interesting dean.

    as far as i know, the vast majority of beekeepers in my area have long since stopped using tm and ty preventatively, (i only know of one that still does).

    there may be a few using fumagillin in the fall, but not many.

    what are you reading these days with respect to the impact of feeding syrup, (with its higher ph), has on bee gut microflora?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #192
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,590

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    what are you reading these days with respect to the impact of feeding syrup, (with its higher ph), has on bee gut microflora?
    As one who adds ascorbic acid to adjust ph I'm interested to learn about the actual benefits...
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  13. #193
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    same here bc, when i'm forced to feed it's 1000mg ascorbic/gallon, (credit michael bush, who recommends slightly more). i believe it is supposed to help maintain the normal gut flora, and not give unfair advantage to pathogens, but i would also like to learn more about it.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  14. #194
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    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/17780/PDF

    Suppression of growth rate of
    colony-associated fungi by high fructose
    corn syrup feeding supplement, formic acid,
    and oxalic acid.


    Jay A. Yoder", Brady S. Christensen', Travis J. Croxall',Justin L. Tank' and Diana Sammataro2.

    Department of Biology, Wittenberg University, Springfield, OH 45501 USA.


    Carl Hayden Honey Bee Research Center, United States Department of Agriculturc, Agricultural Research Service,Tucson, AZ 85719, USA.


    Received 23 October 2007, accepted subject to revision 7 February 2008, accepted for publication 24 February 2008.


    Corresponding author Email: jyoderwittenberg.edu
    -j- Mention of a proprietary product does not constitute an endorsement of use of the product by the U.S D.A


    Summary


    Select colony-associated fungi (bee isolates), Absidia sp., Ascosphaera apis, Aspergillus flavus, Fusarium sp., Penicillium glabrum, Mucor sp., showeda 40% reduction in radial growth rate with formic acid, a 28% reduction with oxalic acid, and a 15% reduction with fructose and highfructose corn syrup (HFCS) when grown on supplemented media at 30C to mimic colony conditions. No effect, suppressing orpromoting growth, was observed on other colony-associated fungi, Alternaria sp., Aspergillus niger, Cladosporium cladosporioides, Rhizopus sp.and Trichoderma sp., except 0.1 M formic and oxalic acid. Sensitivity to these compounds did not correlate with the fungus species being aslow- or fast-grower and sensitivity to one compound did not translate to sensitivity to another compound. Given the competitive natureand high-sporing (conidia) activity of these species, our results suggest that alteration or disruption of the colony\mycoflora can occur byuse of these compounds. This may indicate a possible link between compound application and incidence of bee fungal pathogens.

  15. #195
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    I see the experiment was done in a petri dish.

    Wasn't that the problem with all those small cell studies? That they weren't done in an actual real world small cell beehive, as used by small cell bekeepers? LOL

    But joking aside, at the end of the experiment they show that "our results suggest that alteration or disruption of the colony\mycoflora can occur byuse of these compounds". However I'm not sure of what the point of that is, the very purpose people apply antibiotics is to alter the colony microflor, so they think they've discovered something new? Only spin on it is they then conclude "This may indicate a possible link between compound application and incidence of bee fungal pathogens". It may. Or it may not.

    Would be interesting to test some bees from my country. It's illegal here to use antibiotics in a beehive, for any purpose, and our bees have never in their history been treated with antibiotics. So they could be used as a "control", of what untreated gut microflora would be, if someone wanted to do it. Also, it's extremely rare here to see symptoms of nosema apis, although when experimental tests have been done it's found that many hives have it, at below a symptomatic level.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 12-15-2012 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Added more info
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #196
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,604

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Martha Gilliam looked at some of these issues in the 70's at the Tucson Bee Lab (you will find copies of all of her work on our website under "Gilliam Archives"...there are a few magazine articles, but mostly peer reviewed journal articles spanning 20+ years. Ramona and I painstakingly scanned them one page at a time because they were not readily available.
    http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.p...lliam-archives

    Also, Ramona has painstakingly put together a page of references, with as many articles freely available as possible. It hasn't been updated in a while, but there is a lot of stuff there.
    http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.p...obe-references

    There is also the book that came out recently, "Honeybee Colony Health, Challenges and Sustainable Solutions" Edited by Diana Sammataro and Jay Yoder.
    http://www.amazon.com/Honey-Bee-Colo...pr_product_top

    The book is a bit spendy, so you might want to get your local library to secure it through interlibrary loan, or maybe your club should have it in their library. I've only skimmed parts of it, Ramona has read it more thoroughly.

  17. #197
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    i've completed post-graduate courses in microbiology, and this is still over my head.

    is there a solid take home lesson here?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  18. #198
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    the 'discussion' in the usda study states that the 'potential' alteration in microflora "could lead to promoting the occurrence of either beneficial fungi or fungal pathogens."

    they suggest it could cut both ways.

    what's your take on it dean?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #199
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    oldtimer, are the synthetic miticides banned there as well?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #200
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Most of the synthetic miticides are allowed but not all. It was considered that if miticides were banned we would lose all our hives. As opposed to AFB which can be controlled by burning, and nosema is not a problem so no chemicals needed for those.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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