Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

small cell foundation

97K views 429 replies 36 participants last post by  deknow 
#1 ·
#49 ·
zactly. although it would be nice to know one way or the other, for example, if it is worth someone going to the trouble of regressing their entire operation to achieve whatever potential benefit there may be.
 
#50 ·
Here is a rough draft of the study I would do....if anyone wants to fund it, please let me know. There would be both observation hives and 10 frame hives I've been working on the observation hive setup for a while, so that is hashed out a bit more than the 10 frame trials. I can't take the time go through all the details at the moment....but I have given this some thought :)

Ideally the observation hive trials should be done in several locations concurently (I imagine a set of customized trailers that could be placed with various beekeepers).

(20) 2 Frame Observation Hives, in 4 groups, each group facing a different direction (NSEW). Cross A and Cross B combs are made from left and right halves of Mann Lake small and large frames “married” together (much like the "mosaic frames" used in comb contamination trials). Cross A will have small on the top left and bottom right, Cross B will have small on the top right and bottom left.
• Small Mann Lake
• Large Mann Lake
• Foundationless
• Cross A
• Cross B

Each observation hive (OH) will have 24 hour video recording on each face, as well as other metric data collection (weight, bee counter, array of temperature sensors).

Observational data obtained would be:
• Cell size preferences for various functions/activities
• Development time (pre and post capping)
• Behavioral Differences between the groups
• Survival

Experimental data obtained would be:
• Mite counts
o Shake/Wash/Drop
o Pulling Brood
o Behavioral differences in marked bees emerged from different sized comb
• Impact of queen could be measured by swapping queens between large and small cell hives
• Microbial analysis
o Bees
o Bee Bread
o Bee Poop

Costs (X 20 per location)
• Observation Hives ($200)
• Monitoring Equipment
o Cameras ($200)
o Scale equipment ($200)
o Bee Counter (?)
o Temperature Probes ($200)
• Package of Bees ($95)
• 5 Plastic Frames ($25) (packages will be started in a nuc to first draw comb and to regress where appropriate)
• Climate controlled space with outside walls on 4 sides (?)

Fixed Costs
• Computer equipment ($2000)
• Systems integration and customization ($2000)
• Time (?)

10 frame trials: Should be done X 100 by 20 beekeepers with various practices (weighted towards “no treatment” types) in all different parts of the U.S. (or world)…each beekeeper with 5 sets of hives in 5 locations.
• Small Mann Lake
• Large Mann Lake
• Foundationless
• Wax small cell
• Wax large cell
 
#54 ·
Surely this would fit into the SARE Program.

SARE's vision is an enduring American agriculture of the highest quality. This agriculture is profitable, protects the nation's land and water and is a force for a rewarding way of life for farmers and ranchers whose quality products and operations sustain their communities and society.

http://www.sare.org/Grants
 
#55 ·
You guys sure have a lot of testosterone ;)

Anybody know off hand the size of a bee found in unmolested/isolated locations containing native bees in Africa or Europe or the Middle East? I've seen reports of cell sizes with a wide range. I ask this because you should have some basis in theory or fact for choosing 4.9, 5.1 or whatever cell size you use to test your hypothesis. :)
 
#57 ·
At this point in the SC evolution, I would put a lot more faith in good stock, and good management practices, than I would in trying to say all the success is due to SC. Far too many variables to definatively say, at this time, that success is due to SC. Twenty years from now, ( I won't be around), but others might be more convincing, with more proof.
.

cchoganjr
 
#59 ·
Whatever happened to seeing for yourself ?
Discussion is beneficial, but I can't count the times people have demanded empirical evidence (and lots of it), while essentially defending methods and practices that amount to little more than dogma. My Dad farmed, and I used to hear "that's the way my Daddy did it, and that's the way I'm gonna do it."
My dad started strip grazing, and was inundated with predictions of failure. He had great success with it.
I experiment in order to learn what's best for me, here and now.
I'll try new ideas, and what works for me, works for me.
Just because you do it differently, doesn't mean that you, or I, are wrong.
Just different.
 
#63 ·
Dean, the UGA study was funded by the Georgia Beekeepers Assn (sorry Ace...no big bucks mega outfits pushing for preferred results) to the tune of $2500..if my memory serves me. No grad student. Much of the work and material was supplied by volunteer/donation. I'm sure you could do some of the same.
Keep it as short and simple as humanly possible (this is one area I'm afraid you will have problems) otherwise the number and variety of variables will grow exponentially.
Good luck...
 
#65 ·
Dean, the UGA study was funded by the Georgia Beekeepers Assn (sorry Ace...no big bucks mega outfits pushing for preferred results) to the tune of $2500..if my memory serves me. No grad student.
This is one of the Jennifer Berry studies? Is she not paid for her time as part of her job? Does she not have a reasonable entomology dept. supporting her (run by Keith Delaplane)?

I could do some interesting studies with a $2500 budget if I was also being paid a salary and had some institutional facilities and resources. ...not really the same thing.

deknow
 
#66 ·
This is just speculation...I have no data to base this upon...just a hunch.

I think the Seeley study was mostly the work of the undergrad involved. My recollection from talking to Tom briefly about it (between when it was done and when it was published) was that he didn't even claim to know much about the details.

This doesn't excuse him...he should have made sure that at least the writeup was good with the data they had...he didn't, and he is listed as the PI. Unfortunately, it is impossible to get to the bottom of such things...no one can afford to admit that they didn't perform a study well, as it will certainly affect future funding.

deknow
 
#70 ·
I’ve read the three studies I mentioned earlier. Berry/Delaplane, Hayes/Ellis and Seeley.
You and I have already made our thoughts on those studies clear. I have no intention of repeating those circuitous, long winded, semantically driven, purposeless debates with you.
I pointed out that a study could be conducted on a shoestring if the parties involved were able round up volunteer support. I now understand that you are unable to do that.
Now….go ahead and have the prerequisite last word.
As I said before….good luck.
 
#72 ·
I pointed out that a study could be conducted on a shoestring if the parties involved were able round up volunteer support. I now understand that you are unable to do that.
This isn't a fair characterization at all of what you have pointed out. 2 of the 3 investigators on the study are salaried researchers who were being paid a salary (and benefits) to secure such funding and volunteer resources to do this exact work...at least two reasonably compensated, highly trained individuals were involved on the universities time...to pretend that this was done with merely $2500 is dishonest.

deknow
 
#75 ·
I never pretended anything. I simply pointed out that a trial could be conducted on a small budget. You've attempted to portray the figure $2500 in absolute terms.
Until today I accepted that you and I had strongly held, adult differences of opinion.
 
#77 ·
deknow

I really don't have much of a dog in this fight but as the old saying goes "if ya want something done right, you might have to just do it yourself"..I for one would certainly welcome an additional study regarding small cell application for treatment free beekeeping. I happen to use different sized cell foundation here and I look forward to tracking my individual results in keeping my bees alive and healthy. I view sc beekeeping as hardly a revolutionary development but frankly I would rather argue the merits of really good tequila vs. the size of cells my bees make, or what I try to force them to make. However in the interest of science (and you most likely being a Red Sox and Patriots fan), I will go on record today as saying I will donate a minimum of $25.00 to any potential sc study that you happen to be involved with in the next 3 years. Now, as this website alone offers 16,000 members, even a commitment of a mere $25.00 from 25% of that population would rake in $100,000 big ones. That would surely buy a few cups of research and another unbiased scientific evaluation. Lastly it would appear to me that there just might be a few bucks available from the manufacturers of sc foundation and or plastic frames who might also wish to see some positive energy shed on one of their products. In closing, my offer remains as a starting point for any possible future research regarding small cell beekeeping. Let me know where to send the first check.

* This offer is rescinded if for any reason you would happen to be supportive of any N.Y. teams.

Cheers (and go Patriots)
 
#82 ·
I'll match the $25 donation above. Up to $50 now. For this to go anywhere, there needs to be a protocol written up as to how this money will be spent, etc., etc. I am more than happy to start a thread where members can post an amount to see what we can come up with if Dean is committed to doing a study.
 
#87 ·
Yes, I'm very concerned about my "professional reputation"

A bachelors degree in music
The author of a complete idiots guide to beekeeping
An "internet authority"
A honey pedler

I don't care how such trials come out. I'm interested in treatment free beekeeping, and the best way I've found to accomplish that includes small cell regression...so that is what i suggest others do. At this point, it only costs a few extra dollars to regress first with pf frames before going foundationless. Probably costs nothing extra if you are using foundation. I cant see an objection or downside, unless one is militantly against plastic and/or wax.

Deknow
 
#101 ·
Yes, I'm very concerned about my "professional reputation"
Author of the Complete Idiot’s Guide to Beekeeping
Regular speaker at the Organic Beekeepers Meeting in Oracle, AZ
Organizer of the Northeast Treatment Free Beekeeping Conference in Leominster, MA
Speaker at various other regional and national beekeeping meetings/conferences


Do you promote small cell in/at any of the above?
Are you paid for any of the above?
Pretending that you could conduct an unbiased study of small cell is….dishonest.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top