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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,575

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    I never pretended anything. I simply pointed out that a trial could be conducted on a small budget.
    I'm simply baffled that you can't agree that $2500 means a whole different thing to an individual and to a university lab. Heck, we spend $2500 every 2-3 months just on health insurance...we have to actually produce that money.

    For us, doing $2500 worth of research would mean that whatever of our time we weren't spending on that specific research, we would have to spend producing some kind of income. No one compensates us for the time we spend.

    For 2 members of the UGA entomology department, the time they spend doing that research is compensated in salary _and_ health insurance (I assume). The computers they use (and the office software they use) are paid for, maintained, and periodically upgraded by the university. Any analytical equipment they need is likely on hand. Other professors that (as part of their salaried positions) are willing to help with statistical data or experimental design input.

    I agree that there are some interesting low cost study ideas out there (several in my head)....but any of these things requires a lot of time. I've already started to lay out what I think a good design would be for some of this research....no one has commented. I know I can't afford to do it for free, and I know that in my own circumstance, that my overhead makes $2500 not enough to do much worthwhile. Why aren't the researchers asked to volunteer their time as well?
    As far as volunteers go....everyone raise your hands if you will let some volunteers run some of your hives for you.....no one? You'd rather actually have people who need the income and are willing to do what you need when and in the way you tell them you want it done? Really? I would think that the promise of competent free labor would cause all commercial beekeepers to recruit new beekeepers from the local bee club to help out for free.

    deknow

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,385

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    I'll match the $25 donation above. Up to $50 now. For this to go anywhere, there needs to be a protocol written up as to how this money will be spent, etc., etc. I am more than happy to start a thread where members can post an amount to see what we can come up with if Dean is committed to doing a study.
    Regards, Barry

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,575

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    ....let me work some of this out before we start talking money. thanks...this is encouraging.

    deknow

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    644

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    I have my checkbook out...your welcome dean..
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Santa Fe, NM
    Posts
    644

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Barry I agree..and after watching a couple of the posted videos of dean..we need to insure that the money doesn't all go towards his coffee habit..
    "Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay".....Krishnamurti

  6. #86

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    Accepting funds from any sc manufacturer would not be a good idea... Imo
    Why not? It's already going to be conducted by someone who has their professional reputation riding on the results.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,575

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Yes, I'm very concerned about my "professional reputation"

    A bachelors degree in music
    The author of a complete idiots guide to beekeeping
    An "internet authority"
    A honey pedler

    I don't care how such trials come out. I'm interested in treatment free beekeeping, and the best way I've found to accomplish that includes small cell regression...so that is what i suggest others do. At this point, it only costs a few extra dollars to regress first with pf frames before going foundationless. Probably costs nothing extra if you are using foundation. I cant see an objection or downside, unless one is militantly against plastic and/or wax.

    Deknow

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,378

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    dean, for what it is worth, i have had some experience in the design, execution, and publishing of a handful of scientific studies, (although that was several years ago).

    after reading your suggestions for a design in your previous post, it is not clear to me exactly what hypotheses your are trying to test.

    my take on the small question, is that there is interest as to whether or not regressed bees have an advantage over nonregressed bees in resisting collapse from varoasis.

    if this is the prime question, my initial thoughts on a study would be these:

    the experimental variable would be regressed vs. nonregressed bees.

    the control variables would be everything else. i.e. type of hive, comb material, feeding or not, genetics, manipulations, and anything else that would mean managing the two groups as identically as possible.

    both groups should located nearby geographically to control for differences in weather and available forage.

    treatments should not be part of the protocol, because we would want to know specifically what difference cell size makes.

    the measure would be regular mite counts, and ultimate success rate in terms of survival.

    controlling for genetics would be challenging, because it might be hard to get genetically similar colonies that have are both regressed and not regressed. it might be easier to use already regressed bees for the experimental group, and shake out genetically similar bees onto standard cell for the control group?

    it would take someone versed in statistics to figure out an adequate number of colonies needed for both groups to make the data meaningful.

    and, it may take a couple of years of observation.

    this is my first go at the thought process, i'll keep thinking about it.

    and, i'm good for $25 as well.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Park City Ky
    Posts
    1,796

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Barry...I am willing to match the $50.00 posted above, but, wouldn't it be better if the study was conducted by someone with no dog in the fight. I would love to see an objective study of SC vrs traditional. The ones I have seen are neither objective nor conclusive

    cchoganjr

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,590

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Why not? It's already going to be conducted by someone who has their professional reputation riding on the results.
    Dean has more to lose if a clean, well designed study revealed benefits to Small Cell Beekeeping. Treatment free honey and bees could become more readily available and cheaper. Reputation wise I don't see any risk there. At worse, there could be a convincing study that finally ends the debate and disproves there being any benefit to Small Cell Beekeeping. Dean would have had the pleasure and recognition of designing and executing it.

    There's several sources for SC wax foundation. Mann Lake is the sole supplier of the "PF" frames, and Honey Super Cell is sold primarily by Simpson's. They could benefit from a positive small cell study. The few small cell nuc suppliers could make a few dollars and some additional sc foundation rollers could be sold. Mann Lake would have the most to gain in my opinion. And, therefore, I believe I would avoid accepting funds or material from them.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,378

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    after a little more thought....

    all of the colonies should be in the same yard.

    no in hive feeders should be used, but rather a yard feeder if needed.

    the person doing the mite counts should be 'blind' as to whether the hive is regressed or not.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #92
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,385

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleo C. Hogan Jr View Post
    wouldn't it be better if the study was conducted by someone with no dog in the fight.
    Ideal, but unlikely to happen. I think next best would be to let Dean do it, but also have that someone with no dog in the fight to monitor and report independently.
    Regards, Barry

  13. #93
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Park City Ky
    Posts
    1,796

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    O.K. I'm still in for the $50.00, and I did not mean to imply that Dean would not be objective, just that some will question methods, or conclusions, based on the comments already submitted on this thread. Dean is fine with me.

    cchoganjr

  14. #94
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,385

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Perhaps Michael Palmer could be the overseer.
    Regards, Barry

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,378

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    randy oliver, if willing, would be perfect for designing the study. it starts with deciding on what the question you are trying to answer is.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Great Falls Montana
    Posts
    3,866

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    I will throw in some money with the following caveats. The study has to last at least three years and deadouts can be repopulated with survivors from the same side of the study. This does not mean controlling mites by brood breaks. maybe that is unrealistic or enlarges the scale too much but I think those results are an important peice of this debate. I think mite counts are good information but survival and production of surplus honey are the goals.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,249

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Am I missing something? I can't see how hundreds of years of breeding bees to be larger so they can produce more honey can be undone is a few months. I also can't see why anyone with a stake in honey production would be interested in going back to once was. Is there an advantage for a commercial endeavor to flood the world with feral stock after man has succeeded in purging most of it?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,378

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    ace, i'm not sure it has been proven that bigger bees make more honey.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  19. #99

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Vance G View Post
    The study has to last at least three years
    Let's see….you’ve got to collect enough money to pay Dean a salary and benefits equal to that of Jennifer Berry for a period of three years. You have to provide enough to compensate a PhD entomologist to oversee the study for the same period. Plus enough to cover the overhead of a university entomology department and beelab…oh yeah…don’t forget another $2500 for incidentals. You’d better check your savings and plan to dig deep……maybe check your 401k
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,378

    Default Re: small cell foundation

    it might be hard to get meaningful results if any dead outs are restocked with remaining colonies in either group. the spitting of a colony would introduce an unwanted extraneous variable.

    the endpoint of the study would be whenever there was enough data statistically to answer the question one way or the other.

    randy oliver conducted a small trial like this using hsc a few years ago. but both groups suffered a ccd type collapse before he was able to get enough data, and he didn't attempt to repeat it.

    (but, oliver's work gave me another instance where non-regressed bees took directly to hsc).
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

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