Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Nice, Very nice. Photos say it all.

cchoganjr

[rwurster]

Nice.

[Barry]

Picking a better tool might help you get the results you are looking for.

Or just toss the 1/8" bit away after it gets dull (2000 end bars later) and drop another $1 for a new one.

[ralittlefield]

Nice job on the fames, Ben! Really nice!

[westernbeekeeper]

Thanks everyone; I loved doing it, and hope to do a lot more in the future. It's actually really mostly you guys' fault that they turned out, since y'all gave me all the tips, pics, and advice. Thanks a billion! Yes, I'll try to make a video as soon as I refine and streamline the process.

[Major]

Very nice frame Ben I made some myself earlier this year. I know this may sound like a dumb question but why on the top bars outside of the end bars do all commercial frames and the ones that Ben has built do they taper down. What is the reason for this, I'm sure there is a good reason why not just leave them flat. Please someone educate me on this. Ben once again nice job.
Major

[westernbeekeeper]

why on the top bars outside of the end bars do all commercial frames and the ones that Ben has built do they taper down. What is the reason for this, I'm sure there is a good reason why not just leave them flat. Please someone educate me on this.

Not a dumb question at all. I wonder the same thing. I built them that way because pretty much all the frames I've seen have the frame ears tapered like that. Some light on exactly why would be appreciated. Thanks Major!

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

Allegedly helps to keep the top bars from getting glued down by the bees. I say allegedly, because, I don't know that I ever saw any data on it.

Is Michael Bush on here tonight.

cchoganjr

[Daniel Y]

Nice job on the frames. As for the taper. I also understand it has to do with them getting glued in by the bees. What I do know is that it woudl prevent full surface contact between the frame end and the frame rest. Maybe a moisture issue???

[jmgi]

I don't really see the necessity of a tapered top bar end, only 3/8" at most of the top bar sits on the frame rest, so the slight taper that the top bars have wouldn't even come into play, in that short of a distance (3/8") the top bar is going to come into complete contact with the frame rest anyway, so it would not help in keeping the bars from getting glued down any less in my opinion. There must be a reason for it, does anyone know if these tapers where put on frames decades ago, or is it a more modern thing? John

[Daniel Y]

John, I suppose you could make some flat ones and find out if there is any reason.
looking at photos of frames from the 1800's I don't see a taper.

[jmgi]

Daniel Y, it could be one of those things that was introduced years ago, and everyone forgot the reason why. Here's something I just though of though, what if the taper was added to lower the frame slightly so that the bee space between the top of the frame and the bottom bars of the frames above was kept correct? If you just cut a straight cut 3/8" across without a taper, then that would mean your side bars would not have as much depth in the notch (the notch that the top bar inserts into) and that would not be as strong of a joint. So by increasing the depth of that notch (which they did) about 1/8" then the top bar could be about 1/2"(which it is) thick at the point where it meets the side bar, and then the top bar could be tapered down to 3/8"(which it is) to give you a stronger frame that still keeps the bee space intact. We have to agree that the frame we use in the Lang hive took a bit of figuring out when it was first designed, and as far as I know it has remained virtually unchanged for many, many years. Because frames are frequently manipulated, they have to be as strong as possible in all the joints to not fall apart in a couple months, so much thought has gone into their design. John

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

jmgi others.. Looking closely at the cut and the side bar joint, to the top bar, It may very well be a strength issue. That taper would give a slightly larger area for glue and nail where the end bar joins the top bar.

cchoganjr

[psfred]

I suppose that the taper is to keep the bees from gluing the bars down so badly. It also give more space if you are using the old style 7/8" rabbet and folded metal rests, and the bees can get under the bars that way. Don't know if that is a new idea, but it does keep small hive beetles from hiding there.

I made mine to pretty much match commercial ones, which have tapered ends. The point about more strength is well taken, of course.

The cut on the side bars so they are not in contact their full length is for the same reason -- the bees won't glue them together if they are 1/4" apart. I made some full length mediums last year and didn't have trouble getting them apart, but I'm going to cut all them this year. Somehow I forgot I had a jointer sitting right next to the table saw....

Peter

[Joseph Clemens]

Well folks, due to your help, I think I've figured it out. See photos below:

Attachment 4016

When I make my own frames I have chosen to eliminate the weakness illustrated in your photo in the above quote. I do not cut a dado in the bottom of my End Bars, I cut my Bottom Bars short enough so they fit between the inner sides of my End Bars. I glue and nail (staple) the Bottom Bars in place. This makes for much stronger frames, where the Bottom Bars are highly unlikely to ever pull off.

I also choose not to taper my End Bars, they are straight, rectangular in shape. I find that tapered End Bars kill bees, catching them in the angle formed by the taper as frames are slid back into place, similar to a guillotine.

[westernbeekeeper]

Thanks, Joseph; that's a great tip. One less cut to make. I'm gonna start doing that. Thanks again!

[Cleo C. Hogan Jr]

[QUOTE=Joseph Clemens;887183]When I make my own frames I have chosen to eliminate the weakness illustrated in your photo in the above quote. I do not cut a dado in the bottom of my End Bars, I cut my Bottom Bars short enough so they fit between the inner sides of my End Bars. I glue and nail (staple) the Bottom Bars in place. This makes for much stronger frames, where the Bottom Bars are highly unlikely to ever pull offQUOTE]

Joseph Clemens.... Just asking for clairification... AND..I AM NOT a physics major. (and I don't play one on TV either HA!!) Why would his joint be the weakness illustrated in the photo and how could the joint you describe make a much stronger frame. His method has three sides for glue and staples into the end bar, your method only has the end of your bottom bar against the side bars. Only 1 point of surface for glue and stapes.

Please don't be offended, I would just like to understand. I just don't really see how your joint would be better. Obviously it eliminates one saw step, but here we were talking about strength.

cchoganjr

[rwurster]

I cut my Bottom Bars short enough so they fit between the inner sides of my End Bars. I glue and nail (staple) the Bottom Bars in place. ... I also choose not to taper my End Bars, they are straight, rectangular in shape.

Ditto all that I do the same, cuts production time. I also make my bottom bars thicker to keep them from blowing out when thumping honey boxes.

[psfred]

Notched bottom and end bars with the nails driven at a 45 degree angle will be stronger than a butt joint. Thicker bottom bars are stronger than thin ones, but we don't have any trouble with standard divided bottom bars, at least so far. Most times the comb is strong enough to hold things together in normal use, but then we aren't exactly a giant operation, so I can't say how well my design (a copy of standard divided bottom bars) would be in commercial use.

So long as the bottom bar does not split, nailed butt joints will work fine. The that bar splits around the nail, though, it won't hold any better than any other design.

Peter

[Joseph Clemens]

psfred,

Bottom Bars, when set into the dado's/notches cut into the bottoms of the End Bars to accept them (like a socket), has been one of the few joints in frames that seem to regularly fail no matter how securely I glue/fasten them to those holes cut for them in the bottoms of End Bars. I've glued them on all three sides and at the same time toe-nailed/stapled them as well as sometimes even nailing/stapling through from one End Bar leg through the Bottom Bar and into the other End Bar leg, still they've sometimes failed. I believe that the fasteners used here, weaken the joints. When the bees glue the Bottom Bars to the Top Bars of the frames below, that is a powerful bond, that doesn't always give, when prying, before the End Bar/Bottom Bar joint fails. I haven't had one of these butt jointed End Bar/Bottom Bar connections fail, yet. However, I do expect that some of them will eventually fail. It puts an awful lot of stress on those joints when prying up frames whose Bottom Bars are affixed to the Top Bars below.