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Do you make your own frames? Please show me how!

46K views 114 replies 35 participants last post by  SeaCucumber 
#1 ·
Hello all,
I would like to learn how to make my own frames. I know that some of you all do make your own, and I am wondering if you would be willing to share the steps and process here. Please post pictures or videos! I am really interested in pics and videos, seeing I have already seen some plans, but have yet to come even close to perfecting the process. The few ones I have made work, but take awhile to make, and are altered slightly for easier "manufacturing" and construction. I'll post some photos as soon as I can. Thanks in advance.
 
#94 ·
I suppose that the taper is to keep the bees from gluing the bars down so badly. It also give more space if you are using the old style 7/8" rabbet and folded metal rests, and the bees can get under the bars that way. Don't know if that is a new idea, but it does keep small hive beetles from hiding there.

I made mine to pretty much match commercial ones, which have tapered ends. The point about more strength is well taken, of course.

The cut on the side bars so they are not in contact their full length is for the same reason -- the bees won't glue them together if they are 1/4" apart. I made some full length mediums last year and didn't have trouble getting them apart, but I'm going to cut all them this year. Somehow I forgot I had a jointer sitting right next to the table saw....

Peter
 
#99 ·
Notched bottom and end bars with the nails driven at a 45 degree angle will be stronger than a butt joint. Thicker bottom bars are stronger than thin ones, but we don't have any trouble with standard divided bottom bars, at least so far. Most times the comb is strong enough to hold things together in normal use, but then we aren't exactly a giant operation, so I can't say how well my design (a copy of standard divided bottom bars) would be in commercial use.

So long as the bottom bar does not split, nailed butt joints will work fine. The that bar splits around the nail, though, it won't hold any better than any other design.

Peter
 
#100 ·
psfred,

Bottom Bars, when set into the dado's/notches cut into the bottoms of the End Bars to accept them (like a socket), has been one of the few joints in frames that seem to regularly fail no matter how securely I glue/fasten them to those holes cut for them in the bottoms of End Bars. I've glued them on all three sides and at the same time toe-nailed/stapled them as well as sometimes even nailing/stapling through from one End Bar leg through the Bottom Bar and into the other End Bar leg, still they've sometimes failed. I believe that the fasteners used here, weaken the joints. When the bees glue the Bottom Bars to the Top Bars of the frames below, that is a powerful bond, that doesn't always give, when prying, before the End Bar/Bottom Bar joint fails. I haven't had one of these butt jointed End Bar/Bottom Bar connections fail, yet. However, I do expect that some of them will eventually fail. It puts an awful lot of stress on those joints when prying up frames whose Bottom Bars are affixed to the Top Bars below.
 
#101 ·
psfred... Do you use foundation or do you let the bees build their own.

When using foundation, the bees tend to attach all the way down the sides and across the bottom bars, and as you said, the comb is strong enough to hold everything together. Without foundation, I find that they tie the comb sometimes in the center, sometimes 1/2 way down the sides, but rarely all the way down the sides and across bottom, as they do with foundation. This also helps to strengthen what ever joint is used.

I use the standard 2 dado cut, divided bottom bar, separation hasn't been a problem. If a problem is observed it may also be a result of bee space not being correct.

cchoganjr
 
#102 ·
Well, I'm not going to argue with someone else's experience, and if that butt joint works for you, go for it. The bottom bar joint is weak, that's for sure, with most of the wood missing from the end bar when you cut notches in it.

I have not yet had the frames stick together badly between boxes. Some burr comb between Kelley deeps, but that's because, I think, that there is too much space between them, almost half an inch. Don't know why, but their frames are not a good match for the boxes like all the other sizes are. If you don't have enough bee space, though, and the bees propilize them together, I'd expect divided bars to pull out on a regular basis.

I do use foundation in the main -- I like to put two foundationless frames per brood box for drones. Once the combs have been in use a while they are pretty strong (but don't drop a frozen one without cross wires!).

I don't remember what my Granpa used.

Peter
 
#103 ·
Peter - If you're into accurate, repeatable setups...you could cut a tang hanging down in the bottom bar notch of the side bar to fill the gap due to the slot in the bottom bar. That is a tall order to make it fit repeatably, though, and cutting a shim piece to glue and fill after the frame is assembled may not add all that much strength, and would take a forbidding amount of time. The kind of task a machinist calls "government work".

Meanwhile, back in the real world, I like douglas fir for my top and side bars, and 1/2" x 5/8" oak for my bottom bars, and just shoot the staple through and hope it does not explode. A 7/16" thick side bar tends to hold up to the stapling, have enough glue area, and render good stiffness and strength. Paying attention to the end grain on the side bars - that it is knotless, not crooked nor wavy - usually makes staples go in well. The ones that have undesirable grain go into the "research" pile (foundationless, special frames, next size down, firewood, etc.).
 
#104 ·
Doug Fir and yellow pine both work well for top bars, but the yellow pine is prone to cracking when nailed through to the top bar from the side, at least the stuff I have. Both machine better than softer pines, but the need for being able to nail it to the top bar keeps me using the softer "white" pine 2x6s for now.

Any profile is easy to make if you have a shaper, the ability to make cutters, and lots of pieces to cut. I try to keep the variations and complexity to a minimum since I'm using a table saw and band saw. That means no fancy cuts where I'd have to run something through several set-ups (for instance, a groove to shorten the "tang" to fit a grooved bottom bar followed by two more cuts). Takes too long, too much fiddling, and all for three or four pieces.

I cut two 5/16" by 5/16" slots in the bottom of the block I cut end bars from, leaving 1/8" or a bit less in the center. Leaves space for the foundation to fit between the two parts of the divided bottom bar, but one could also cut the reverse on the end of a large block and cut grooved bottom bars to fit as well.

Great fun -- have my frame assembly jig laid out, will finish it tomorrow, I think.

Peter
 
#105 ·
Yes, it seems to depend on how dry / brittle the yellow pine is, fastener guage size is important, and Yellow pine does crack if the grain is very fine and very dry. Doug fir is stronger, but gets awfully hard as it ages, so get some that is fresh cut. Agree fully about machining custom cutters and getting all the complex shapes and dimensions right in the most detailed profile formed at once in manageable slugs, then slicing them apart. No other way to do it or you're wasting too much time.

Good luck on the frame jig - I would hate to make frames without the gluing /stapling jig! Makes it all worth while. My next one will be bigger - I'm thinking 50 at a time, but the glue drying is the limiting factor, so may stick to 30. A gang brush for the glue may make it work, though, as will a mist water sprayer to keep the glue from drying out too fast.
 
#106 ·
Well, I've perfected the process of manufacturing frames, and I don't think I can make the design any better than it is now. I cranked out several dozen this past Saturday, and I couldn't be more pleased. Thanks for everything so far, everyone. I can make frames for about $0.23 apeice (mostly recycled wood, of which I have a pretty much unlimited supply), not counting my time, and the time factor depends on how many I make at a time, which can be a pretty large amount. Here are some photos:

Product Wood Table Furniture Shelf


Joseph's recommendation for butt-joint bottom bars worked well for me:
Hardwood Molding Wood Ceiling Floor


Wood Hardwood Molding Ceiling


Instead of using a saw to neck down the endbars, I did it on the router. It turned out excellent. I think it looks better and more professional ;). Pics below:
Shelf Wood Plywood Furniture Molding


Also thought the top bar/end bar joints turned out well too:
Wood Table Hardwood Plywood Wood stain


Cat furniture Wood Table Stairs
 
#107 ·
Those look pretty good!

I've got my end bars drilled and tapered -- used the jointer set to cut 1/8", don't know why I made all those frames last year with straight sides, my jointer sits right beside the table saw!

I'll be bringing up the parts to the house tonight, it's way too cold to work in the garage (less than 20F outside and no heat out there) to put them together.

I've got about 100 to put together for the three hives I want to start this year, plus a bunch for honey supers (50 at least).

Peter
 
#112 · (Edited)
Western Ben - In the second photo, it looks like you may have made a rabbet joint rather than a butt-joint on those bottom bar-to-side bar joints. Did you cut a rabbet in the bottom of the side bars? That is probably a stronger joint than the one I'm using because the staple is going sideways, not vertical. I will make a few, calculate gluing areas, and run some destruction tests. Why didn't I think of that? I wonder what else this will lead to....stronger frames are a good thing....maybe frames that kill wax moth larvae, or a built-in beetle trap? Thank you for causing me to question everything!

P.S. It appears that your'e doing excellent work.

Peter - The frame jig does make one appreciate good accuracy and size-repeatability. Isn't the frame assembly jig right up there with the bellows smoker, foundation wax, and the honey extractor, as far as beekeeping inventions go? I put it up there close, if not equal. :)
 
#115 ·
There are 2 steps common to making every frame part:
1. Make cuts for multiple parts.
2. Rip cut to make individual parts.

Factories have special saws that quickly rip cut multiple pieces, and have a feeding mechanism (like on a planer). Now that I think about it, it might not be that expensive to build a saw with many blades that cuts many pieces.

Another option is to automate the rip cutting. I would use a stepper motor and ball screw for the motion perpendicular to the saw blade. I would use a wood rack and pinion and a regular motor for the cutting motion. Inductive limit switches make sense. One robot could do all the rip cuts, but I would still prefer to build a multiple blade saw if its not too expensive.
 
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