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first attempt at queenrearing

157K views 111 replies 24 participants last post by  DocBB 
#1 ·
i have an idea i would like to get some feedback on about queenrearing.

i have access to a yard about four miles away that i wanted to set up as a nuc yard.

i was thinking about using the five frame nuc boxes that i alreay have, and splitting each one down the middle with a divider board, thus creating (2) two frame mating nucs in each one.

i like the idea of incubating the capped queen cells, allowing the virgins to hatch in my garage, and placing them in the mating nucs.

i figure if one side doesn't get mated, or if i use or sell the queen frome one side, i can use a couple of 3/8" holes in the divider board to do a newspaper(less) combine, and end up with a five frame nuc to use or sell.

i envision using a yard feeder for these, and robbing drawn comb and brood for my production yards.

i also envision some of the local beeks bringing me 4 frames in their five frame nucs to put virgins into.

do you think this will work?
 
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#2 ·
i was thinking about using the five frame nuc boxes that i alreay have, and splitting each one down the middle with a divider board, thus creating (2) two frame mating nucs in each one.
This comes to mind....

Root, A.I., ABC of Bee Culture, 1878

If we are to have this [a] quart of bees work to the best advantage, something depends upon the sort of hive they are domiciled in. A single comb, long and narrow, so as to string the bees out in one thin cluster, is very bad economy. Two combs would do very much better, but three would be a great deal better still. It is like scattering the firebrands widely apart; one alone will soon go out; two placed side by side will burn quite well; and three will make quite a fire. It is on this account that I would have a nucleus of three, instead of one or two frames. The bees seem to seek naturally a space between two combs; and the queen seldom goes to the outside comb of a hive, unless she is obliged to for want of room.
 
#3 ·
Just what I have observed in a friends operation wherein he builds hundreds of three frame nucs, three to a deep box. The attempt is made to make a three frame split and add a queen cell to it. The resulting mated queen, along w/ the worker bees of course, will maintain a brood pattern between two combs, facing each other. They will blossom out as need for more space occurs and ambient temperatures aid in keeping brood warm.

There is a bee economy reason behind why Commercially Raised queens are raised in miniframe nucs. Doing so is more3 successful. Frames half or onethird the length of standard frames. I have seen three frames and a feeder used.
 
#5 ·
i was inspired by lauri's description of using an egg incubator to hatch out queen cells, and then marking and placing the newly hatched virgins in her mating nucs.

is there any down side to this?
 
#6 ·
Besides the handling of virgin queens? Maybe Mike has some experience there. I find them quite skittish on the comb and have never tried to pick one up. Whereas, mated and laying queens are realatively easier to grab hold of.

Personally I would rather have a virgin emerge into a mating nuc. How are you going to keep the emerging virgin queens seperate and safe from each other. Transporting and installing too? Just some things to think on.
 
#7 ·
good points mark.

the capped queen cells are incubated in a 'hair roller' cage. when they hatch, they are in that cage.

lauri explains that she has found it important to remove the from the cage fairly quickly, and she places them on open cells of honey in her mating nuc. since they can't fly yet, handling shouldn't be too hard.

one down side would be getting those virgins placed in a timely manner, especially if one were rearing lots of queens. i am probably only going to raise about 20 at a time.
 
#9 ·
No way would I use an incubator to emerge my virgins. With the proper time in in your work, I find it totally unnecessary and un-natural. Placing the cell in the nuc and allowing the virgin to emerge among her bees will always be the way I do it.

No method is perfect. Adding an extra chore or two to the queen rearing process adds extra places where things can go wrong, reducing the eventual success and adding to the workload.

The bees have been emerging virgins for eons...but now we need an incubator to do the job better??
 
#11 ·
My preference is to never see them until they are mated. Handle your ripe queen cells with care, "candle" them or just dont use them if you are suspicious of them at all and the number of non-hatching or poorly developed virgins will be a really, really small percentage.
 
#16 ·
Mine is about the same...a few miles. I harvest the cell bar frames of ripe cells, brushing off the bees, and place the frames in a nuc box on the front seat of my Jeep. I turn the heat up, and drive to the mating yard slowly, taking care when going over bumps and railroad tracks. My takes this summer from 128 nucs ranged from a low of 82 to a high of 118. Most of the time ithe catch was in the 90s.
 
#17 ·
thanks jim.

ok, so 'candling' is holding the cells up to a bright light, and seeing if it is 'full'?

i didn't see any plastic cups in the video, so i am assuming wax cups were used. are they just stuck to the bottom of the bar with melted wax?

is it best to use 'protector cups' when placing these capped cells in the nuc?
 
#18 ·
Those folks are making their own wax cups, there is an excellent video on dipping setups to make those as well and I believe it is also by Malka. I think it would inspire many to quit the plastic cups altogether.
The cell protector debate is ongoing. I dont use them, many do. In some scenarios I think they are probably real good and what the heck they are cheap.
Here ya go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5LzXXVkA10
 
#21 ·
From what I've observed, newly hatched virgins are relatively easy to catch and handle. Somewhat sluggish, and flying is not an option. I've seen swarm queens a bit more active upon hatching, but I speculate they were held in their cells by the workers until the proper time for swarming. My kids hold newly hatched queens often. A couple days later, they are quite developed in their movements, are extremely quick, and potentially will fly. It's as if they consumed mass amounts of caffeine in that period. :) I agree with Michael that the incubator is an added step. However, I segregate them a couple days before hatching. I don't have to worry about opening up a cell builder to find a virgin appeared and cleaned me out. Also if someone comes to pick up cells and an opportune rain shower appeared that day, no worries. I like to take them out of the builder four or five days before they hatch for safety and convenience. Newly hatched virgins do have a short "shelf life" of not cared for properly. It's best to use them within 12-24 hours unless you bank then in a queenless hive for a short time. Be careful introducing virgins that have been banked a couple days. Don't give them an escape route..... They're extremely flighty.
 
#22 ·
thanks whitetail.

i have no experience, but i do like the idea of making sure it's a good cell, seeing that hatches properly, and the convenience of getting the marking done.

i'll probably only do about a dozen or so at a time, and my plan is to put them straight away into five frame nucs for mating, set up with 2-3 frames of bees.

my schedule is pretty flexible, so i shoud be able to get the timing right.
 
#23 ·
Candling as previously mentioned is very handy. You can cull cells that are blanks. Some queens will just stop developing at various stages and the cell will be capped and appear healthy from an outward appearance. The best time to candle is right before they hatch. You can see the queens moving in the cells. Very facinating. But, you better have cages to segregate them. When they're wigglers, they're within hours of hatching.
 
#24 ·
very good info, thanks again to all.

from what i can tell, lauri put the hair roller cages on the cells when she put them into the incubator. i guess that's what i'll try.

is there a guideline for how long is too long to keep a frame of young larva out of the hive while grafting?
 
#26 · (Edited)
I love my incubator for hatching out the queens. My operation is very small compared to Michael Palmers and the 'extra step' is enjoyable.
Queen rearing is still new to me. I am still enthusiastic. When it becoms a 'Job' I may have a different opinion about my methods. But for now, I am completly satisfied with my procedures.

Placing cells in mating nucs is faster and efficient. Checking mating nucs for a successful hatch takes time too. You can easily have mating nucs that are queenless and out of service too long if you don't.

But I Hate looking for unmarked queens, especially virgins. By marking mine as soon as they hatch, then placing in the mating nucs, they are a snap to find. Even in a five frame deep nuc, as long as they aren't out on a mating flight.
I found no difference between successful return percentage with both marked an unmarked virgins. The time I save NOT looking for queens in the nucs has to be far more than the time I spend incubating them.



Besides, I handle them a few times before I place them and teach them to sit and stay. :)

Watch these videos..These are how I learned. Of course I modified them to my own ideas, mating nuc designs and climate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZlQ7mNmf6o&list=ULjVwAiUJ4fdQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwAiUJ4fdQ&list=ULwZlQ7mNmf6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3lLihcBHkQ&list=ULjVwAiUJ4fdQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV-3Bz7TNlU&list=ULW3lLihcBHkQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLczfL2bp8&list=ULlV-3Bz7TNlU

Heres a few more photos. You'll have a blast raising the queens






Poor mans incubator..but it works just fine:




What I don't like waiting for is the queen to lay in the Mann Lake grid. I like grafting directly in the grid's cell cups and using the brown and yellow cell holders. Then I can use the roller cages at any stage once they are capped.
I still use the grid, but don't depend on it for any schedule.



I had a hard time getting the brown cup holders to stay put. Nails didn't work, glue didn't help. Stapler was the ticket.
 
#34 ·
#27 ·
ok, i've got permission for a yard for the nucs, i've got my equipment list going for queen rearing supplies,
i've got good bees to graft from, but i still have some questions, starting with this one:

what are the pros and cons of using a queenright hive for a cell builder?
 
#28 ·
How do you plan on setting up the cell builder? Placing a graft above an excluder? Is there open brood up there, too?

I elevate brood above an excluder at the start of the cell building process. 10 days later the brood is all sealed and that box becomes the cell builder, but is separated from the queen-righjt section. When I check the queenless brood before grafting, only about 20% have started cells. Not a very good average. These cells are removed and my graft is added. Then I get 90% or more acceptance.
 
#29 ·
A pro would be a constantly laying queen to keep up the population of the cell builder, without having to add brood. You'll want to use a brand new queen in the queen right builder, otherwise it's likely you'll lose her. I've lost some really good queens with queen right builders, as I use some of my best colonies to build cells. For some reason, when the broodnest is segregated by an excluder, it alters their behavior. It seems the queen will slim down in preparation for swarming(cease egg laying). Shortly after that, she'll vanish with part of the population. Keep a close eye on her.
 
#30 ·
thanks for the replies.

i am only going to attempt about a dozen cells at a time, and probably only do 2 or3 rounds.

with such few cells per round, is it necessary to have such a big cell building colony?

i was hoping to pack a five frame nuc box full of nurse bees, with capped brood, honey, pollen, and a feeder. and then start a nuc or two out of those after the building is done.

mp, are you saying that acceptance is better if all the brood is capped in the cell building part (above the excluder) before you introduce your graft?
 
#33 ·
understood michael, i think. 10 days before grafting you move frames of brood up above an excluder and let that brood become capped. on grafting day, you physically remove this box that was above the excluder, (destroy any queen cells that may have been started?), and shake in more nurse bees, thus creating a 'new' queenless hive (with all its brood capped) for cell building. is that about right? :)
 
#35 ·
Almost. The added brood is mostly sealed and emerging...over the next several days. This creates the big supply of nurse bees, especially when added to the nurse bee population already in the colony.

Yes, you remove the cell building box, remove the queen-right colony and place it on the ground behind original stand facing the other way, and place cell builder on original stand. Cell builder gets most of the nurses and all of the field force.

You check for swarm cells below the excluder and emergency cells above.
 
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