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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleo C. Hogan Jr View Post
    1. If newbees do not need education,
    Where did you get this idea from?

    then why would anyone go to college.
    To be initiated into the corporate world otherwise it is not necessary. Most of the learning of my profession had nothing to do with my formal education.

    Most people learn better from books (a harmless jab at engineers!)
    Apparently you don't know too many engineers. They predominantly learn from tinkering and failures more than any other profession.

    Daniel explained how people learn. It is not the book that matters it is the written language that may or may not get passed on to the reader. Visual aids have always been used. In a book all you can illustrate is a still photo or a sketch. A book cannot compete with the internet that is capable of video illustration and sound when it comes to learning.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  2. #42
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    If I gave the impression that formal instruction whether it be Internet or classroom based is a waste of money, let me clarify. I think these classes are probably real good primers for prospective beekeepers who are trying to grasp the basics, are they worththe money? I suppose only the student could answer that at the end of the class. I responded to the question of how an employer would view a prospective applicants ability to be an effective employee. In that context some sort of diploma would mean far less than the qualities I mentioned.
    As someone who has literally 10's of thousands of hours logged in a beeveil through the past 40+ years I have still learned a lot on here and some of it from highly observant folks with far less experience than I. There is a wealth of information available on a forum such as this but one of the great distractions is sorting out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Posters with virtually no experience at all are given as much "podium time" as those who can relate decades of experience. To someone just coming on here it can all be a bit overwhelming trying to grasp who really knows of what they speak and who simply regurgitates second hand information available to anyone capable of a google search. I don't have much trouble making the separation but it bothers me that many inexperienced posters struggle to figure out who is who.
    In a learning environment whether it be in a bee yard under the employment of a commercial beekeeper or in a classroom setting where you are listening to a professor's lecture you are in an environment where it is understood that listening and learning is what students do. Employers and instructors will gladly listen to respectful and probing questions but long winded talks about why they are in error would never be tolerated for long.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #43
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    you're right rader, touche'.

    please forgive me dan, i should have waited until i had my coffee.

    let me rephrase,

    does anyone else think that beekeeping practices are 'all mostly incorrect', and that methods are for the most part 'obviously mistaken'?
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    In a learning environment whether it be in a bee yard under the employment of a commercial beekeeper or in a classroom setting where you are listening to a professor's lecture you are in an environment where it is understood that listening and learning is what students do.
    For most things this is true but with beekeeping there are too many contradictions at the Professor or Employer level. This is why a forum discussion often results in a debate. As a newbie this is good. As a professor or an employer it may not be so good.

    Employers and instructors will gladly listen to respectful and probing questions but long winded talks about why they are in error would never be tolerated for long.
    Employers will have their employees do it their way right or wrong. Hopefully you can see the distinction between an employee and a forum member. Instructors (at the college level) are concerned with completing a syllabus on time. It is less of a concern at the college level that the student succeeds.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #45
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    Park City Ky
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    1,610

    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Acebird...Correct..I don't know too many engineers, I don't know too many beekeepers, in fact I don't know too much of anything, and never will, because I will listen and learn from others. The word "too" is the operative word here.

    cchoganjr
    Last edited by Cleo C. Hogan Jr; 12-07-2012 at 07:40 AM. Reason: spelling/typing

  6. #46
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    Aug 2007
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    A newbie doesn't need any knowledge that he/she has to pay for. All the newbie needs is determination and a small investment.
    "small investment " Are you referring to "one thin dime"?

    Or, as an engineer, have you learned from your mistake?
    Last edited by BeeCurious; 12-07-2012 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Typo, because accuracy matters to me, unlike some...
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  7. #47
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleo C. Hogan Jr View Post
    Acebird...Correct..I don't know too many engineers, I don't know too many beekeepers, in fact I don't know too much of anything. The word "too" is the operative word here.
    Cleo, maybe its time to repost your original comment from the "wax" thread ...
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    Or, as an engineer, have you learned from your mistake?
    I have learned plenty from my mistakes just not in this case. There wasn't anything to learn.
    Last edited by Acebird; 12-07-2012 at 08:08 AM. Reason: Misspelling of learn
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #49
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    Nov 2011
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    you're right rader, touche'.
    Squarepeg, actually I agree 100% with your original comment. I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to illustrate the old parable about "the shoe being on the other foot".

    Perhaps we can agree to move on and jointly "fight the forces of ignorance wherever we find them".
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    I have learned plenty from my mistakes just not in this case. There wasn't anything to lean.
    "There wasn't anything to lean"

    OK, I think I understand.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  11. #51
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    May 2011
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    Livermore, CA
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Acebird, I know a lot of engineers, both at work and in my personal life. Ya, not all of them think that what is written in a book or formulated on a computer is gospel or WILL WORK, but the ones I deal with at work tell us to do things a certain way and when we tell them it wont work because of this problem or that, they insist on it until we physically show them why it wont work.

    Engineers like yourself push their agendas and ideas without having actual hands on experience, and in that they fail to see what problems could arise and will arise. Example, you have a couple of hives, yet you consider yourself a bee expert and flood this site with comments on something you have no hands on experience with, which makes you look dumb. You might be the smartest person on here crunching numbers and using scientific formulas, but your hands on experience is lacking and in my book that could spell trouble to a person taking your advise, yet you sit there and argue with people that have oodles of hands on experience and have seen the results of doing certain things FIRST HAND.

    Not to mention I have seen what you have engineered..................i'll just stop on that note.
    Coyote Creek Bees

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    There wasn't anything to lean.
    Presumably you actually meant "learn." Very apt that you have difficulty with this word.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    There wasn't anything to lean.
    Is this because you know it all? Acebird, lets sit down and write a beekeeping book using your wealth of knowledge.................i'll bring a post it note, or that piece of paper that came in my fortune cookie at lunch yesterday, and a pencil, that should about cover it. Oh and a bottle of asprin for my head ache from hitting my head on the wall.
    Coyote Creek Bees

  14. #54
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    rader, i'm all for debunking nonsense, and pointing out when statements presented as facts may not be factual.

    but i am going to try and be more careful with my tone, and do my best not to insult anyone.

    i appreciate you pointing that out to me.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    All the newbie needs is determination and a small investment.
    Or a wife with a checkbook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    To answer your question, nothing. My wife pays for everything.
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 12-07-2012 at 07:49 AM. Reason: oops I forgot the animated icon. Ace really likes these!
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  16. #56
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    All this thread needs is "more cow bell"!
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeGhost View Post
    Engineers like yourself push their agendas and ideas without having actual hands on experience, and in that they fail to see what problems could arise and will arise.
    I am sorry that you have to work in that environment. It is an atmosphere that I would expect to see in a large corporation more so than a small company that needs results from it's engineering staff.

    BeeGhost I have literally thousands of posts on beesource (my buddy is keeping track and will give you an update from time to time as to the exact count) and many of them I state that I am a newbie plus it is in my profile. So where is the secrecy? Where is there any claim of my "expert" status?

    I have gotten complements on my extractor from people that have seen it first hand. It is hard for me to understand your objection to me building a working device from scrap material. Is it the thin dime thing? What really has got you upset? I don't think I am the person you think I am. Certainly not a number crunching engineer that sat behind a desk all my life. Far from it.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  18. #58
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Affordable beekeeping

    Stop the presses: I am most likely in a minority here but I kind of enjoy the "birdmans" posts. They are often entertaining and occasionally informative. There is usually a little bait dangling there that you can choose to nibble at your own risk. I read them with a wry smile and almost always move on but every once in a while even I cant resist. I thought his response to me in post #44 was actually pretty good.....but not quite good enough for me to bite.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  19. #59
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    Jun 2011
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    brownwood, TX, USA
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    676

    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    The $189.00 might be cheap. I started in beekeeping some 19 months back. The internet and a few phone calls have been the only outside assistance that I have received. My bees have survived and are finally prospering, but they did have a rough first year. I am now recovering from knee replacement surgery. As such, I won't be able to travel comfortably until after the first of the year. This spring I intend to travel and visit some beeks within a couple of hundred miles of my place. My driving expenses and motel costs for two of these trips will well exceed 189 bucks.

    Let's face the facts, some people learn well in a class room environment, others need the hands-on experience and some lack the discipline to follow instruction. There are many different types of learners. This brings to mind the old Will Rogers quote: "Some men learn by reading, some men learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the fence."

    I'm an engineer. I supervise drilling hostile environment oil and gas wells. My crew has two safety meeting a day at crew change. At that time we address safety concerns for the next 12 hour shift. I invite all of my crew members to please give their opinion about our upcoming chores and tasks. Before we do a major operation, we have another meeting about procedures, and once again, I ask the input of all members of the work team. Sometimes the lowest ranking person on the crew has the best solution. It has been my experience that engineers are no more dogmatic than other supervisors.

  20. #60
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    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
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    Default Re: Afordable beekeeping

    It is an atmosphere that I would expect to see in a large corporation
    Ace, you often talk about "large corporations". Can we know what large corporations you have experience with. As for experience, I mean within the walls... Eating Corn Flakes doesn't count as experience with Kellogg's.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

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